ISA Competition Rule Book - AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD

[JoeyD23]

The latest version of the ISA Competition Rule Book is now available for Download by visiting: ISA Rules :: International Side X Side Association (http://isxsa.com/Rules)

Let the ISA know what you think!!!!

[Brian B]

Very well put together gentlemen!

A couple things confuse me.


15.0 ISA Production 1000
The ISA Production 1000 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with a displacement of up to
1000CC’s that retain the basic factory configuration and full functioning 4-wheel drive

It would seem that engine swaps are allowed if the vehicle retains the basic factory configuration and does not exceed 1000cc. Is this correct?

15.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Suspension kits must be aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits readily available for sale and must not
exceed an outside track width of 77”.

Wouldnt this rule exclude guys like Jagged X and Brett Carter?

[rockstarcustomz]

Very well put together gentlemen!

A couple things confuse me.


15.0 ISA Production 1000
The ISA Production 1000 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with a displacement of up to
1000CC’s that retain the basic factory configuration and full functioning 4-wheel drive

It would seem that engine swaps are allowed if the vehicle retains the basic factory configuration and does not exceed 1000cc. Is this correct?

15.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Suspension kits must be aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits readily available for sale and must not
exceed an outside track width of 77”.

Wouldnt this rule exclude guys like Jagged X and Brett Carter?
Me too. My suspention was custom made by Geiser Brother's. :(

[JoeyD23]

I will let Jeff disertate here guys on the exact explanations as I do not exactly remember the reasoning behind wording some of that stuff that way. The way that rule is stated in terms of the suspension would rule a lot of people out, I do not think that was the purpose of it. I also doubt there would be any way to check that in tech anyway.

As for the Production 1000cc I do not think it wil allow for engine swaps, I think you would have to run Unlimited 4 Brian? Again, I will let Jeff or Mike clarify for us.

Keep checking it out and let us know your thoughts and concerns!

[Darryl89]

15.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Suspension kits must be aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits readily available for sale and must not
exceed an outside track width of 77”.

Wouldnt this rule exclude guys like Jagged X and Brett Carter?

Excludes me also...

[450grl]

Well, I certainly hope LOORRS never adopts these rules or you can say goodbye to the SR1 class.....we don't have reverse.

[JoeyD23]

I wouldn't worry about that Corry....Short Course SR1 is pretty solidified and is truly another monster and needs to be treated as such IMO.

[450grl]

Thnx Joey! :)

[rappy60guy]

how does one join this ISA joey ?

[JoeyD23]

There should be a link on the www.isxsa.com site. If not then email jeff@carreraperformamcegroup.com

[Darryl89]

Joey, has there been any indication from BITD that they might adopt or use these rules. I see some big differences with UTVRA rules in several areas and am concerned that a machine built for BITD by UTVRA rules won't be competitive in KOH that has adopted ISA Rules. And a car built to run KOH won't be able to run BITD.
By definition, my car, Jagged X and Brett Carter's car would have to run KOH in the Unlimited 1000 class, but might not be competitive since ISA Unlimited Rules allow unlimited displacement and unlimited suspension. But our cars won't qualify for the Production 1000 class because of our custom built a-arms. But we retained OEM mount locations and types, which would qualify for Production 1000 if our A-arms were allowed...

[rockstarcustomz]

There are a few other concerns for us also. Like shocks mounted in stock position? Stock floor boards? I can't compete in the unlimited class because I don't have the motor for it. So??? Hopefully you all can get the bugs worked out. I commend you for taking on this huge project!

[Ignore Amos]

I didn't read it as thoroughly as Id liked...but am I missing something on normally aspirated? didn't see where Turbo, supercharger etc.. is addressed or excluded..

[Darryl89]

Just got an email in response to some of my concerns.

The rules were reviewed by a few BITD competitors, some that frequent UTV Underground. They are all respected and the rules will affect them also, but they voted in what they felt was the best interest of the sport and making it grow.

It sounds like the rules that BITD uses will remain with BITD. So if you run a BITD legal car in Pro-UTV with certain suspension mods, you potentially will be running against UTVs in KOH, and perhaps other races, that have unlimited-wild suspensions and also, the engines are pretty much, "anything goes as long as it's not a car/automobile engine". Which means you could easily see 1200-1800cc UTVs out there (doesn't Kawasaki make a 1800cc streetbike motor)... so it looks like you'll need another UTV built for KOH then...unless you think your driving skills will overcome 1800cc and one-off, wild suspensions.

I am being torn between running KOH in the UTV race or just saying bye-bye to UTV's at KOH, talking with Jimmy's 4X4 about building a 4400 car instead or hanging in there and having some KOH specific UTV sandbag me......

Michael, I looked and didn't see anything that limits turbos or superchargers either. So who knows, you might see a 260hp Apex motored UTV with 24inches of travel show up at KOH...Not worth my entry fee if I have to run Unlimited 4 against that...

And it looks like the next possible change in the rules will be a year from now. The association members/founders have voted and it's a done deal...

Mixed feelings here... :) :( :mad: :eek:

[Brian B]

I'm confused.

[Ignore Amos]

Darryl, if that's the case where they will allow just about anything to run...they will exclude most of the pro BITD racers which (excluding the SR1s) are the largest constant group of racers out there... its already expensive enought to run all the expensive BITD races..just to enter into another series where the BITD rule built cars don't stand a chance...but maybe that's not the ISA focus..maybe there are enough people who will build the ultimate UTV racers, that are not concerned that they will have very little bleed-over from the BITD . Brian...I am confused too..

[JoeyD23]

guys...I am only the media liaison for the ISA...While I did sit in on the rules planning meetings I am not 100% able to disertate some of the meaning of the individual rules. Jeff Knoll or Mike Lasher will need to chime in with some of the answers you all are seeking!

[Jeff Knoll]

The ISA rules in no way where written to replace existing rule agreements at BITD or LOORS. The ISA rules committee was clear from the start that it did not want to undermine the relationship UTVRA had with these two sanctions.

The goal was to create a very well rounded complete rule package that would foster growth of the racing opportunities and set a standard in which multiple sanctions could run the same set of rules.

With the exception of SR1's most everyone should have a place to race within the ISA rules. You may not be able to race in Production 1000 with a custom built one off SXS. but you can race in Unlimited 4. The three Production classes are geared toward readily available off the shelf equipment that anyone can buy. The ISA rules needed to be drafted in a manner that they would work across a large geographical area, with various needs, and types of people racing. They where not tailor made for the west coast, LOORS, or BITD.

SR1's where not included in the rule package because I would assume they are intellectual property of someone. If SR1 racers wanted to be included the best method would be to solicit ISA and ask for changes to the rule package. The rules are somewhat fluid in so far as they can be modified one time a year at the annual ISA meeting which tentatively will be held next October.

BITD racers are not excluded from racing; the Unlimited 4 class was developed for people who had the ability to exceed what most people can do regarding building a SXS. the Production classes where geared toward keeping costs reasonable, parts readily available, and generating car counts that exceed what are being seen currently at LOORS, and BITD.

As far as KOH is concerned. The Unlimited 4 class is almost exactly what was used last year for the race. Had KOH not adopted the ISA rules those wishing to race KOH would have all been racing under rules like the Unlimited 4 class, and that would have been the only class. This gives people with a smaller budget, less fabrication talent, or a SXS that is bolt on the chance to experience the same thrill as a person who has a full blown fab shop at their disposal.

No one person wrote the ISA rules, we all had strong opinions, and the debate lasted almost a year. I think in the end everyone is going to given an opportunity. If you want to race in Production 1000 a BITD, or LOORS car is not the type of people you will be racing against. That class was not geared for those people, and 4 of them helped write the rules.

Maybe SXS's are a different bird than everything I have raced off road, but the engine size has not determined the outcome of a race on its own merit in my experience. Even more so when it comes to KOH.

It is disappointing for me to see people post that they are excluded from these rules, because with the exception of the SR1 you are not. You just cant race a one off custom built SXS in a Production based class. As far as the SR1 vehicles I would imagine it would not be hard to change the Unlimited 2 Rules to delete the reverse rule, but it would require ISA membership to ask for the change.

I am behind at work because I was busy with EXPO last week, so I may take time to get back to you on this Forum. Please bear with me, on the responses.

The rules are not properly formatted on the web site yet, and thats why there has not been a press release about them being released. I was surprised to see them out in the world. There is a couple small changes to the document that are not represented in the current download. I think Joey got a little excited breaking the story.:D

It will be a little clearer when the Volunteer Web developer gets the finished product up.

[Jeff Knoll]

Just got an email in response to some of my concerns.

The rules were reviewed by a few BITD competitors, some that frequent UTV Underground. They are all respected and the rules will affect them also, but they voted in what they felt was the best interest of the sport and making it grow.

It sounds like the rules that BITD uses will remain with BITD. So if you run a BITD legal car in Pro-UTV with certain suspension mods, you potentially will be running against UTVs in KOH, and perhaps other races, that have unlimited-wild suspensions and also, the engines are pretty much, "anything goes as long as it's not a car/automobile engine". Which means you could easily see 1200-1800cc UTVs out there (doesn't Kawasaki make a 1800cc streetbike motor)... so it looks like you'll need another UTV built for KOH then...unless you think your driving skills will overcome 1800cc and one-off, wild suspensions.

I am being torn between running KOH in the UTV race or just saying bye-bye to UTV's at KOH, talking with Jimmy's 4X4 about building a 4400 car instead or hanging in there and having some KOH specific UTV sandbag me......

Michael, I looked and didn't see anything that limits turbos or superchargers either. So who knows, you might see a 260hp Apex motored UTV with 24inches of travel show up at KOH...Not worth my entry fee if I have to run Unlimited 4 against that...

And it looks like the next possible change in the rules will be a year from now. The association members/founders have voted and it's a done deal...

Mixed feelings here... :) :( :mad: :eek:

I'm confused.

I am confused more than all of you. What cars are outclassing your custom built BITD cars? Lots of speculation about what Might show up. How do you guys think the people who don't have cars like yours currently feel?

I don't think there is anyone out there who can convince me a motor is going to win KOH.

[Darryl89]

Jeff,

I understand what you are saying, but there are 260hp Apex motored UTVs out there now, that can have super wild suspensions built that will make them impossible to outrun...they will virtually be KOH 4400 cars with m/c motors. The Unlimited 4 class still needs engine and suspension limits. I don't mind running in that class, but not if I have to run against something like I just described. My pocket book won't afford that...not for a UTV anyway...

I'm not specifically asking to be able to run in Production 1000, I don't want to run in that class. Keep it for the semi-stock machines. But to put my BITD spec'd car against an unlimited motor and suspension car is unreasonable. You have opened the door for some wild builds that are limited by pocketbooks, not rules. If I want to spend $125,000 on a car, I will buy one of Randy and Cottin's machines.

I say that the Unlimited 4 Class still needs engine and suspension limits. Otherwise, I can't compete in any ISA events and have a real chance at winning....

My 2 cents worth....

[Jeff Knoll]

Just got an email in response to some of my concerns.


It sounds like the rules that BITD uses will remain with BITD. So if you run a BITD legal car in Pro-UTV with certain suspension mods, you potentially will be running against UTVs in KOH, and perhaps other races, that have unlimited-wild suspensions and also, the engines are pretty much, "anything goes as long as it's not a car/automobile engine". Which means you could easily see 1200-1800cc UTVs out there (doesn't Kawasaki make a 1800cc streetbike motor)... so it looks like you'll need another UTV built for KOH then...unless you think your driving skills will overcome 1800cc and one-off, wild suspensions.



Mixed feelings here... :) :( :mad: :eek:


I have to ask because I don't understand, not because I want to argue. If your arms where custom built are you not included in this statement?

Thats a one off custom suspension last time I checked?

[Ignore Amos]

I am confused more than all of you. What cars are outclassing your custom built BITD cars? Lots of speculation about what Might show up. How do you guys think the people who don't have cars like yours currently feel?

I don't think there is anyone out there who can convince me a motor is going to win KOH.


IM not personally concerned with KOH but would if we are placed with Turbo/Supercharge or 1200-1800cc cars when we are limited to 1000cc's... suspension is basically free in BITD (outside stock suspension points) so no biggie there..

[Jeff Knoll]

Jeff,

I understand what you are saying, but there are 260hp Apex motored UTVs out there now, that can have super wild suspensions built that will make them impossible to outrun...they will virtually be KOH 4400 cars with m/c motors. The Unlimited 4 class still needs engine and suspension limits. I don't mind running in that class, but not if I have to run against something like I just described. My pocket book won't afford that...not for a UTV anyway...

I'm not specifically asking to be able to run in Production 1000, I don't want to run in that class. Keep it for the semi-stock machines. But to put my BITD spec'd car against an unlimited motor and suspension car is unreasonable. You have opened the door for some wild builds that are limited by pocketbooks, not rules. If I want to spend $125,000 on a car, I will buy one of Randy and Cottin's machines.

I say that the Unlimited 4 Class still needs engine and suspension limits. Otherwise, I can't compete in any ISA events and have a real chance at winning....

My 2 cents worth....

The statement that your pocketbook wont afford that and that you will just buy a 4400 car in the same post does not work with me. LOL.

I think you guys should be concerned that someone brings an APEX car to a race when someone actually brings an APEX car to a race. Its not likely someone will bring that kind of a machine to KOH and destroy it in the rocks.

But thats just my opinion. I really need to get back to work now. Sorry.

[450grl]

I hope I don't get flamed for my thoughts, but...... I still don't undertand why or who decided that re-writing all UTV rules was even necessary? Why would the ISA write rules that make an entire, established class illegal (like the SR1 class)? Why try to change classes and rules that have been running successfully up until now?

I personally think that UTV racing is going well, and there is no need to try to rock the boat with new classes and rules. WORCS has been going awesome this year. The Saboba GP has been very successful since it began. GNCC racing back East has a huge turnout and very established classes. LOORRS has been working well since it began, and BITD has been motoring along with their entry numbers as well.

Do I think there should be some safety precautions added at times? Definitely. I'm ALL for safety rules......I also think there is a judgement call that should be made by the promoter of each event, as to how many safety rules should be implemented. These rules, IMO, should be up to the promoter according to their own event, because it's the promoter that will ultimately be held responsible if someone gets hurt. Again, I'm ALL for safety - and I think a standardized SUGGESTED safety rulebook is a great idea, but I don't feel any one entitity should be dictating what a promoter does with their series.

IMO, trying to standardize UTV classes across the board is misguided. BITD has different rules from LOORRS, and for a good reason. We are talking desert cars compared to short-course cars. These are DIFFERENT types of racing, and should have different rules. There is a reason why a Pro 2 truck is VERY different than a Trophy Truck. There is a reason why LOORRS and TORC rules are very different from SCORE and BITD.

WORCS racing is inexpensive, grassroots, run whatcha brung and play around on a MX course type of racing - different from any other series out there, except maybe GNCC. Again, IMO they should have their own classes with their own rules.

As consumers and racers, we are smart enough to take a look at what series we want to run, look at the rules (their differences and their similarities), and build our race vehicles to be competitive in whatever series we want to run. I just don't see the need to standardize these rules for anyone, really.

It's quite possible that the promoters and organizers will also see no need to change their rules, and this entire discussion could be null and void - ultimately, it is every series decision as to what rules they want to run, and they usually know their market pretty well.

Anyway, as a racer and someone who has been ingrained in this sport for a while now, those are my thoughts.

[Darryl89]

I am confused more than all of you. What cars are outclassing your custom built BITD cars? Lots of speculation about what Might show up. How do you guys think the people who don't have cars like yours currently feel?

I don't think there is anyone out there who can convince me a motor is going to win KOH.

Yeah but my car was basically a garage build. And there are several high hp UTV's out there. Can you imagine if someone like Shannon Campbell decided to build a UTV with his resources. I could easily picture a 220-250hp UTV with 24 inches of wheel travel, that costs $125,000.

My car was built within a set of existing rules for a sanctioning body. In the past, it would've been competitive with most other competitors at KOH, but I'm looking forward to what might be built. If you relax rules and allow almost anything, then that's what you will get. Then it means I can't race with my current car and expect to be competitive.

And if horsepower doesn't win races, then someone tell me why do most KOH racers run more and more horsepower...hell, many of them are pushing 650hp or more... If horsepower is important, than why don't UTV's beat Trophy Trucks and Class 1 SCORE cars...

And there is a difference between my a-arms and a true 1 off suspension. Mine were built because I couldn't see spending $5500 for a LT kit and I needed +5 inch wider, not the typical +6 that was available. And that is a hell of a lot of difference from being a true 1-off that means I could install a trailing arm suspension, or such.

[JoeyD23]

Yeah but Brian, my car was basically a garage build. And there are several high hp UTV's out there. Can you imagine if someone like Shannon Campbell decided to build a UTV with his resources. I could easily picture a 220-250hp UTV with 24 inches of wheel travel, that costs $125,000.

My car was built within a set of existing rules for a sanctioning body. In the past, it would've been competitive with most other competitors at KOH, but I'm looking forward to what might be built. If you relax rules and allow almost anything, then that's what you will get. Then it means I can't race with my current car and expect to be competitive.

And if horsepower doesn't win races, then someone tell me why do most KOH racers run more and more horsepower...hell, many of them are pushing 650hp or more... If horsepower is important, than why don't UTV's beat Trophy Trucks and Class 1 SCORE cars...

And there is a difference between my a-arms and a true 1 off suspension. Mine were built because I couldn't see spending $5500 for a LT kit and I needed +5 inch wider, not the typical +6 that was available. And that is a hell of a lot of difference from being a true 1-off that means I could install a trailing arm suspension, or such.


I think you may be looking too far off. Name one car that HAS been built like you are talking about? you are a 4wd vehicle. Its going to take a real genius to build a UTV with that much HP and 4wd. Some other guy at the 411 tried and look at that abortion of a vehicle.

Don't get too worried. We are still talking UTV' here. The gnarliest UTV out there in competition is Jagged X and you would have no problem racing against them.

Like Jeff said. Should the times change, and vehicles change, and things starting getting crazy then the rules are as such that they can be modified.

[Darryl89]

In the beginning, I was all for a standardization of rules for many classes. But now I'm leaning towards what Corry just said...

It looks like I won't send in my entry fee to KOH UTV race until I see what others are going to show. Maybe it won't happen this coming year, but I bet it will the following year (If KOH even gets to happen).

And Jeff, there is a difference between spending $125G on a UTV versus spending it on a 4400 car. I could sell the 4400 car later for double what the UTV would sell for...

Sorry to stir the pot so much... but I see a real concern here that I don't feel good about...

[Darryl89]

I think you may be looking too far off. Name one car that HAS been built like you are talking about? you are a 4wd vehicle. Its going to take a real genius to build a UTV with that much HP and 4wd. Some other guy at the 411 tried and look at that abortion of a vehicle.

Don't get too worried. We are still talking UTV' here. The gnarliest UTV out there in competition is Jagged X and you would have no problem racing against them.

Like Jeff said. Should the times change, and vehicles change, and things starting getting crazy then the rules are as such that they can be modified.

Joey, I hope you are right. But after reading a few articles in UTV Off Road Mag, about high horsepower UTVs, I can see it's not far off that we will be facing 200+hp UTVs, with 4WD. All it takes is a good machine shop and next thing you know, it'll happen. You are right, it probably won't happen soon, not for KOH this coming year, but it sure could for 2013.
And hey, if I get to race against Jagged in their present build, I'll be very happy...

[JoeyD23]

I hope I don't get flamed for my thoughts, but...... I still don't undertand why or who decided that re-writing all UTV rules was even necessary? Why would the ISA write rules that make an entire, established class illegal (like the SR1 class)? Why try to change classes and rules that have been running successfully up until now?

I personally think that UTV racing is going well, and there is no need to try to rock the boat with new classes and rules. WORCS has been going awesome this year. The Saboba GP has been very successful since it began. GNCC racing back East has a huge turnout and very established classes. LOORRS has been working well since it began, and BITD has been motoring along with their entry numbers as well.

Do I think there should be some safety precautions added at times? Definitely. I'm ALL for safety rules......I also think there is a judgement call that should be made by the promoter of each event, as to how many safety rules should be implemented. These rules, IMO, should be up to the promoter according to their own event, because it's the promoter that will ultimately be held responsible if someone gets hurt. Again, I'm ALL for safety - and I think a standardized SUGGESTED safety rulebook is a great idea, but I don't feel any one entitity should be dictating what a promoter does with their series.

IMO, trying to standardize UTV classes across the board is misguided. BITD has different rules from LOORRS, and for a good reason. We are talking desert cars compared to short-course cars. These are DIFFERENT types of racing, and should have different rules. There is a reason why a Pro 2 truck is VERY different than a Trophy Truck. There is a reason why LOORRS and TORC rules are very different from SCORE and BITD.

WORCS racing is inexpensive, grassroots, run whatcha brung and play around on a MX course type of racing - different from any other series out there, except maybe GNCC. Again, IMO they should have their own classes with their own rules.

As consumers and racers, we are smart enough to take a look at what series we want to run, look at the rules (their differences and their similarities), and build our race vehicles to be competitive in whatever series we want to run. I just don't see the need to standardize these rules for anyone, really.

It's quite possible that the promoters and organizers will also see no need to change their rules, and this entire discussion could be null and void - ultimately, it is every series decision as to what rules they want to run, and they usually know their market pretty well.

Anyway, as a racer and someone who has been ingrained in this sport for a while now, those are my thoughts.


Jeff has stressed it many times in threads here. I may not have stressed it enough. While the ISA does want to make a more uniformed UTV racing community, it does not want to come in and just crush whats out there and rebuild it. Everyone who sat in those meetings to help get this ball rolling knows very well the consequences to doing that and knows the reality of that.

What the ISA DOES want to do is foster growth of the sport. The rule book was as much written for NEW potential organizations to have a defined rule book to lean upon as it was for existing organizations to consider using. A bad example would be Soboba. Should they want rules to break up there classes where do they go? They end up going to a WORCS book or a BITD, or????? My point is the rules are here not just for existing series but new and future series. The rules are here for series' like WORCS who are exploding but need to get a bit more safe.

While the rules are firm for now, rememeber this is year 1! The ISA needs some time to work out the bugs, iron out the wrinkles, and fine tune itself for the future. I would bet that if you went way back when and looked at the history of the AMA you would find some very similar fears, questions, and perceptions. But one thing we MUST all agree on is that we need this sport to grow, we need to have a strong voice, and it can help to have a MEMBER ran association like this to help give us some foundation.

Rome was not built in a day. Neither is the ISA. While it took a year to get off the ground, it will take many more to dial it in so that all can feel comfortable with it. I am confident in the board and those associated who helped us with building this foundation, they want the best for this industry. We are all vested here both personally and professionally.

The rules were on the site, I thought it would be good to get some discussion going now. We need to hear the people of this sport, those involved today and those who want to be involved a like. We need you all to speak your minds, and help us with building what could be one of the greatest things to ever come from UTV racing. How cool is it to think that a couple of guys worried about UTV racing helped shape an association that goes out and possibly helps define how manufacturers build units and how trails are designed? This is so much bigger potentially then just some rules.

BITD is set with their rules and LOORRS while it is struggling with car counts is not going to adopt anytime in the near future and maybe never, who knows? WORCS is interested for many reasons and a lot of other series' are also wanting to talk and consider bringing the ISA in to help them with their aspirations of building some successful UTV classes.

I speak all of this as a lover of the sport and a true supporter of the ISA and its goals. While I don't agree 1000% with all of the rules, I do agree that some things have to be sacrificed. I do hope all of you with concerns would look forward and HELP the ISA and not shun it or dismiss it. Understand its heart is with all of you and all of you have a voice and place to offer your opinions, advice, and experience. If you don't like something then help make a change, its the American way!!!!

[JoeyD23]

Joey, I hope you are right. But after reading a few articles in UTV Off Road Mag, about high horsepower UTVs, I can see it's not far off that we will be facing 200+hp UTVs, with 4WD. All it takes is a good machine shop and next thing you know, it'll happen. You are right, it probably won't happen soon, not for KOH this coming year, but it sure could for 2013.
And hey, if I get to race against Jagged in their present build, I'll be very happy...

you mean high horspower TURBO play cars that wouldn't last 1 lap in Parker! lol Don't get too freaked our Darryl. I know its easy to get caught up, especially for someone like you who has so much invested. The rules are here to screw people but here to help with the future of the sport.

[Darryl89]

you mean high horspower TURBO play cars that wouldn't last 1 lap in Parker! lol Don't get too freaked our Darryl. I know its easy to get caught up, especially for someone like you who has so much invested. The rules are here to screw people but here to help with the future of the sport.

Careful Joey, got some Freudian slips going there..LOL
I'll try not to freak out, but I've seen what happens when the rules are so lax for the unlimited class.

And just because they may not be reliable today (the turbo cars), who's to say they won't be in 6 months. Look at UTVs in the Baja...


By the way, anyone want to buy a Prowler...it's slightly modified...
I'm saving up for my new project, a Kawasaki 1800cc turbo with a splitter box (for the 4WD), running subaru diffs. I think if I do it right, I can push 26 inches of travel...gotta get it ready for KOH...

[450grl]

Jeff has stressed it many times in threads here. I may not have stressed it enough. While the ISA does want to make a more uniformed UTV racing community, it does not want to come in and just crush whats out there and rebuild it. Everyone who sat in those meetings to help get this ball rolling knows very well the consequences to doing that and knows the reality of that.

What the ISA DOES want to do is foster growth of the sport. The rule book was as much written for NEW potential organizations to have a defined rule book to lean upon as it was for existing organizations to consider using. A bad example would be Soboba. Should they want rules to break up there classes where do they go? They end up going to a WORCS book or a BITD, or????? My point is the rules are here not just for existing series but new and future series. The rules are here for series' like WORCS who are exploding but need to get a bit more safe.

While the rules are firm for now, rememeber this is year 1! The ISA needs some time to work out the bugs, iron out the wrinkles, and fine tune itself for the future. I would bet that if you went way back when and looked at the history of the AMA you would find some very similar fears, questions, and perceptions. But one thing we MUST all agree on is that we need this sport to grow, we need to have a strong voice, and it can help to have a MEMBER ran association like this to help give us some foundation.

Rome was not built in a day. Neither is the ISA. While it took a year to get off the ground, it will take many more to dial it in so that all can feel comfortable with it. I am confident in the board and those associated who helped us with building this foundation, they want the best for this industry. We are all vested here both personally and professionally.

The rules were on the site, I thought it would be good to get some discussion going now. We need to hear the people of this sport, those involved today and those who want to be involved a like. We need you all to speak your minds, and help us with building what could be one of the greatest things to ever come from UTV racing. How cool is it to think that a couple of guys worried about UTV racing helped shape an association that goes out and possibly helps define how manufacturers build units and how trails are designed? This is so much bigger potentially then just some rules.

BITD is set with their rules and LOORRS while it is struggling with car counts is not going to adopt anytime in the near future and maybe never, who knows? WORCS is interested for many reasons and a lot of other series' are also wanting to talk and consider bringing the ISA in to help them with their aspirations of building some successful UTV classes.

I speak all of this as a lover of the sport and a true supporter of the ISA and its goals. While I don't agree 1000% with all of the rules, I do agree that some things have to be sacrificed. I do hope all of you with concerns would look forward and HELP the ISA and not shun it or dismiss it. Understand its heart is with all of you and all of you have a voice and place to offer your opinions, advice, and experience. If you don't like something then help make a change, its the American way!!!!

Thank you, Joey - I appreciate alot of your clarifications, even if I don't agree with everything the ISA is wanting to do. ;) You rock!

[Ignore Amos]

By the way, anyone want to buy a Prowler...it's slightly modified...
I'm saving up for my new project, a Kawasaki 1800cc turbo with a splitter box (for the 4WD), running subaru diffs. I think if I do it right, I can push 26 inches of travel...gotta get it ready for KOH...

LOL!

[JoeyD23]

My fat fingers!!! lol bad slip but funny.

[Mike L]

IMO It's interesting to read everyone's comments concerning the rules and how they relate to their car and the competitiveness of the program they have. As you all know I, along with many others, have been very involved from the beginning of this in the rules discussion and also very active in the BITD and LUCAS Pro UTV class.

The way I see it is that we all have tried to build a better mouse trap based on our platform we use. Doesn't matter what type of car you start with (Polaris, Arctic Cat, Can-Am, Kawasaki, Yamaha) we all feel there needs to be improvement to make them competitive. If it was Jagged trussing the front end of their XP, Darryl adding a 5" kit instead of a 6", Brian swapping to a Rotax, me moving the upper shock mounts on a teryx to accommodate a larger shock. Regardless of the rule package that's created people are going to be creative and figure out a way to work within the rules to make their car better. Look at the boys at Nascar, they spend tons of money to move things thousands of an inch hoping not to get caught and then end up spending more money to fix it in fines and costs.

The key with the ISA was to keep it affordable and safe wile doing this. And I have to say it really pleases me that the only class that's getting torn apart is the Unlimited 4 class and not any of the production classes that we created.

I knew along with others that creating this rule book would eventually make my Teryx obsolete and many of the PRO UTVs today. But I think in the best interest of the sport it is worth it. Do I think this will be tomorrow or next year? No, but it will be in the future. And when I decide to build a new car I look forward to being able to compete in the Production 800 and Production 1000 classes at a much more reasonable price.

I think some of my fellow board members may not like this next statement but this rule book was written the way it was to leave it open for interpretation in certain areas and allow for the growth of the sport as additional vehicles are introduced. What happens if Honda introduces a sport motor that has a turbo 800? jetskis are turboed from the factory these days why couldn't a UTV be?

The heart of this rule book is the Production and Stock classes and the Unlimited class was designed to not have to turn anyone away.

If it seems reasonable to the Board of the ISA I would be more than happy to hold a conference call or live chat regarding the rule book and answer any questions that are out there. Remember we are starting this trying to make the future of our sport better!

[07fj]

it seems to me you guys did a great job with the classes, for the "short course" SR1's, just make reverse optional, easy rule amendment.
I really do not think it would change the outcome of a race to have it or not.

Rog

[450grl]

...and the unlimited 2 class. I still don't understand why the ISA would have a rule in a class that would probably be predominantly streetbike engine powered, but then say everyone had to have a reverse gear? Streetbikes don't have reverse. The majority of streetbike powered race UTVs currently racing don't have reverse. The "must have reverse" rule has DQ'd an entire class from this organization, and I know that everyone who made these rules knows that SR1s don't have reverse. My question is....why would you make that a rule? Why not just allow reverse, but not require it?

Dangit Rog......you posted before I was finished - lol!

[Wild Earp]

Yeah, have to agree with Rog and Corry. Theres a lot of SR1 cars out there (inc. some that don't race LOORRS) that your excluding. Not a lot of 2wd motor swap cars left once you take out all the SR1s.. Not much sense to even have that class then.

Does BITD enforce the reverse gear rule for DSR1 cars?

[450grl]

Also, just want to say that I'm not trying to be negative, I am just trying to understand the reason behind some of the rules. I appreciate everyone's input, very much. :)

[Bajaxp]

Why not make the unlimited 4 class effectively the same as the current BITD Pro UTV rules then evolve them as the industry changes?

[Brian B]

I am confused more than all of you. What cars are outclassing your custom built BITD cars? Lots of speculation about what Might show up. How do you guys think the people who don't have cars like yours currently feel?

I don't think there is anyone out there who can convince me a motor is going to win KOH.

My 2006 Yamaha Rhino is strictly built with bolt on parts. Not a BITD car. I have a bolt in V-Twin Rotax engine swap. Same engine that comes in the Can-Am Commanders.

What class do Rhino's with Brute Force, or Rotax engine swaps fall into?

Thanks

[Darryl89]

My 2006 Yamaha Rhino is strictly built with bolt on parts. Not a BITD car. I have a bolt in V-Twin Rotax engine swap. Same engine that comes in the Can-Am Commanders.

What class do Rhino's with Brute Force, or Rotax engine swaps fall into?

Thanks

Unlimited 4 Class if it's 4WD, Unlimited 2 if it's 2WD.... You're gonna be running with the big bores...

This from the rulebook:
Production 1000 class:
15.8.1: Engine make is Limited to the stock configuration from the manufacture not to exceed 1000CC

[Bajaxp]

Why not make the unlimited 4 class effectively the same as the current BITD Pro UTV rules then evolve them as the industry changes?

Bueller?

[Brian B]

Unlimited 4 will be in contention for the over-all at KOH?

I agree with Corry and others regarding the SR1/reverse issue.

[747ink]

stock floorboards as delivered does this mean all cars without stock floor boards are in unlimited 4 ????? stock floor boards suck and are unsafe this rule is stupid you want to up the safety but it's cool if your feet can stick out the bottom of the car I'm sure you have seen what happens to rhino floor boards when you lose a spindle we had a guy this year at primm stick his foot right through his floor from bottoming hard .

[dnf736]

This thread and rule book make my case...but that will never happen so what the ISA is trying to do is the next best thing.

[747ink]

well I guess i can strap both of the stock floorboards passenger seat then my car will be legal right I went to worcs because it is fun and i could afford it now you are telling me my cars are not able to compete due to plastic floors does not make cents$

[dnf736]

well I guess i can strap both of the stock crappy floorboards in the fing passenger seat then my car will be legal right I went to worcs because it is fun and i could afford it now you are telling me my cars are not able to compete due to plastic floors does not make cents$$$$$ This is the stuff that kills agood thing

Has or is WORCS adopting the ISA rule book?

[747ink]

I hope not but that's what I've been hearing . I'm all for safety but this new 71 page rule book is not going to help turnout and as far as keeping me from doing a full build on a class 3 car its not going to work I will just build new car faster and lighter .

[Brian B]

As far as we know, KOH is the only sanctioning body that has adopted these new rules thus far. (I think) And if you're reading that you have to have stock floor boards in the Production classes, I'm guessing that is a mistake.

[Brian B]

15.10.4: Stock floorboards as delivered from manufacture are required on all vehicles. Floorboards must
cover the entire area from in front of the pedal assembly to behind the seat(s), and from the outside edge
to the outside edge of the vehicle.

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that this was just poorly worded .

[747ink]

I hope you are right but they change the rule for unlimited class 1000,850and700 all say stock floor boards as delivered from factory

[Brian B]

.....At least stock floorboards ;)

[speedracer]

this new rule book will kill worcs big turn out they have been getting and many other places like the gncc. im in for the extra safty rules like firesuit,neckroll,window nets.etc. however sxs racing has been around for awhile and has had a set of rules that bitd score and lucas oil has been enforcing for awhile.the isa is trying to reinvent the wheel and i dont think its geared for the racer. this 71 page book was designed by racers?ive been racing for almost two years but came from a racing background of racing quads at a pro level.quads dont have all this b.s. rules at thier functions and think the isa is going to ruin the current racing circuit.747 and brian b - plastic floorboards are not safe and if isa thinks they are then they can ride with me in one of my races and hear all the rocks i hit and see the dents that are created by it.Darryl - you are right you will never be able to compete with turbos or superchargers and most motorsports do not allow it,why does isa? and who cares it you made your own suspension or you bought it , it should all be allowed, you cant hate or discriminate on someone who makes his own products because he has the brain or skills too accomplish something like that.and miss corry weller, you are right, what street bike has reverse? if lucas oil is ok with it then why isa not? the wellers have put alot of hard work into creating this sr1 class for the sport to grow for isa to kill it? not cool. and mike lasher what will you do with your kawi? hang it above your fireplace because everything done to it wont be allowed in any of the classes you guys created except unlimited 4 which you will totally get killed in.are the old school 686 raced out rhinos going to have to join the unlimited 4 too?yeah thats fair! and jeff your confused that a 71 page rule book would create this much agument?at this rate the isa rule book will have more pages then it will actual racing members oh wait it already has more pages then members!! isa needs alot of work before it becomes the "ama" of utv.s

[JoeyD23]

Ok, so here is a list of concerns:

-71 Pages
-SR1 Street Bike Reverse rule
-Stock Floor board
Concerns.
-Where do Rotax swapped Rhino's fall in terms of class?
-BITD/Unl4

As for stock floorboards. wouldn't an aluminum skid plate placed below the underside of a car Keep feet from going through? I am pretty sure the floorboard rule is to help maintain the integrity of racing UTVs that look like factory UTVs and level the playing field by keeping the cars closer in design and function. I am assuming here. Right or wrong I am not sure.

Everyone is so quick to judge and freak out. I guess some of you missed the multiple posts in multiple threads that state that this volunteer board have assembled an association and rule book FOUNDATION for which to build upon. You think the AMA just rolled out of bed one day and crapped out a brand new and perfect rule book without making changes? Offer up your concerns and encourage change but chastising the efforts is not helping.

If the book is not to your liking, you have concerns, or questions then ask them. Jeff and Mike can't spend all day everyday monitoring here answering every post so consider sending an email to one of them. You should be able to find contact info on www.isxsa.com.

[JoeyD23]

Sorry if I sound a bit grumpy, reality is I am. I am up at 3:30 am my time to get on a plane and this airport makes me want to punch someone in the face.....lol

I hear all your concerns and worries. UTV racing needs to be helped. That's what ISA is trying to do.

[JoeyD23]

this new rule book will kill worcs big turn out they have been getting and many other places like the gncc. im in for the extra safty rules like firesuit,neckroll,window nets.etc. however sxs racing has been around for awhile and has had a set of rules that bitd score and lucas oil has been enforcing for awhile.the isa is trying to reinvent the wheel and i dont think its geared for the racer. this 71 page book was designed by racers?ive been racing for almost two years but came from a racing background of racing quads at a pro level.quads dont have all this b.s. rules at thier functions and think the isa is going to ruin the current racing circuit.747 and brian b - plastic floorboards are not safe and if isa thinks they are then they can ride with me in one of my races and hear all the rocks i hit and see the dents that are created by it.Darryl - you are right you will never be able to compete with turbos or superchargers and most motorsports do not allow it,why does isa? and who cares it you made your own suspension or you bought it , it should all be allowed, you cant hate or discriminate on someone who makes his own products because he has the brain or skills too accomplish something like that.and miss corry weller, you are right, what street bike has reverse? if lucas oil is ok with it then why isa not? the wellers have put alot of hard work into creating this sr1 class for the sport to grow for isa to kill it? not cool. and mike lasher what will you do with your kawi? hang it above your fireplace because everything done to it wont be allowed in any of the classes you guys created except unlimited 4 which you will totally get killed in.are the old school 686 raced out rhinos going to have to join the unlimited 4 too?yeah thats fair! and jeff your confused that a 71 page rule book would create this much agument?at this rate the isa rule book will have more pages then it will actual racing members oh wait it already has more pages then members!! isa needs alot of work before it becomes the "ama" of utv.s

What street bike engine comes in a UTV from the factory? SR1 was originally written for Lucas Oil. ISA knows that and knows that UTVRA has no bearing over it or BITD. With that said the SR1 reverse rule to me is something to be considered.

71 pages, the number 71.

71, never seen that many UTVs at a race? Maybe ISA can help that by introducing the stock beginner class?

71, many more days than the ISA has even been public. Try helping it before you try destroying it. Do you see ZERO benefit here? Or is the fact that it 71 pages and has some rules you are concerned with mean it's all junk and should be thrown away?

71, it cost less than $71 to join and help shape the future of UTV racing. If you think UTV racing has been perfected in the 6 years it has been around then I don't know what else to say.

[Long Travel Ind.]

71 pages for 6 classes, throw away the cover page, table of contents and a few insert pages and that is less than 10 pages per class!!! seems pretty good to me

Regarding the SR1's I will agree with Corry on the reverse rule I think we might have skipped over that one!!!

floorboards? Trevor I'm sure if you wanted to replace them with aluminum but retain the stock configuration no one would complain, As far as safety is concerned with them anybody here of a skidplate??

Production Vs. one off suspension an easy fix would be to offer it for sale ,like the AMA does for the works/production rule, I.E Pro circuit builds something for their race bikes you can buy it from them from their retail store ??

Rotax rhino is a tough one Brian, I think it needs to be in the production 1000 class as you have done it with your kit but if someone decides to get crazy with it it lends itself to the unlimited class

[747ink]

Great so I guess since you guys decided that keeping a piece of plastic will level the playing field i have to start over and build all new cars and then you come up with some other rule to kick me out ? this is bs I had a feeling there was a reason for not getting to preview these new rules

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

Here's my personal thoughts behind all of this. Saftey is first but it dosent have to be so strict.I have to agree with speed racer about the car counts at any ISA event. It might be ok at Lucas Oil and BITD races because theres only a 10 car count. At the Local GP'S and WORCS series there is a 30 Plus utv car count and this is what gets the most exposure for UTV racing,so I hope it dosent DIE! We will know what happens when the cars show up to the LEGP this year,and this is just a manditory FIRE SUIT.Maybe some one needs to talk to the LUCAS OIL and BITD to lower there prices by half and they might get double the racers and they wont have to join classes during 1 race.

When I build my next race car its going to cost me a arm and a leg.
Again this is just my personal opinion.....

We may not make it over the 42 car count that was expected in 2012.

Some of the manufactures "KAWI" might want to step up and give some type of incentive to keep the sport alive.What are we going to race for? It used to be for fun.

[JoeyD23]

Great so I guess since you guys decided that keeping a piece of plastic will level the playing field i have to start over and build all new cars and then you come up with some other rule to kick me out ? this is bs I had a feeling there was a reason for not getting to preview these new rules because you are fing me with this rule .

Trevor do you feel this single rule was put in place because of you? If so, as your friend I can promise you that it is not the case. You or your built cars were never once mentioned when discussing a class for rhinos.

As I stated in my first post this morning. Before freaking out do understand that #1 WORCS has not yet adopted these rules and #2 feel free to voice your concern via phone or email on particular rules that confuse or concern you.

[JoeyD23]

Here's my personal thoughts behind all of this. Saftey is first but it dosent have to be so strict.I have to agree with speed racer about the car counts at any ISA event. It might be ok at Lucas Oil and BITD races because theres only a 10 car count. At the Local GP'S and WORCS series there is a 30 Plus utv car count and this is what gets the most exposure for UTV racing,so I hope it dosent DIE! We will know what happens when the cars show up to the LEGP this year,and this is just a manditory FIRE SUIT.Maybe some one needs to talk to the LUCAS OIL and BITD to lower there prices by half and they might get double the racers and they wont have to join classes during 1 race.

When I build my next race car its going to cost me a arm and a leg.
Again this is just my personal opinion.....

We may not make it over the 42 car count that was expected in 2012.

Some of the manufactures "KAWI" might want to step up and give some type of incentive to keep the sport alive.What are we going to race for? It used to be for fun.

Dan are you high? These rules make it wouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. Explain to us what you mean? lol if anything the rules help reduce build costs.

Why is it the manufacturers responsibility to keep racing alive? It's the racers and race orgs responsibility. With the ISA it's possible to see a national points championship the could include a manufacturers contingency. Until then you should talk to whatever race org you plan to compete in to encourage them to gets manufacturers to support. But why should Kawi pay a guy racing a rhino or rzr or Polaris pay someone running a Kawi?

If LEGP doesn't get over 42 cars because people don't want to race safe then I DGAF. We don't need someone crashing and dying thus ruining our entire sport and that race like we saw at the Cal 200.

Look. If all of you hate the ISA and hate the idea of an organized industry then that is fine. Go and campaign against it to all your series promotors. But that is not going to discourage those of us who plan to be here for the long haul of UTV. This industry is growing and it needs some organization so that we can flourish. Again, think of SEMA, AMA, etc. Spend a little money, join the ISA and influence it from within.

Man, I am only the media guy but I am already starting to feel like a damn petitioner.

[Desert Toyz Cory S]

This ISA rule book is worthless unless someone want to use it. I have spoke to many race promoters across the USA and none of them want the ISA rule book.
There will be no ISA at BITD or Lucas Offroad series.
I created the sport of UTV racing and have been sucessfully managing it for 6 years. I have consulted over 100 UTV racers and many promoters and continue to do so. I think ISA should stay out of UTV racing and focus on everything else having to do with UTVs. Just my 2 cents :D

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

These rules make it wouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. Explain to us what you mean? lol if anything the rules help reduce build costs.
My Yamaha rhino has a fuel cell that has a custom built aluim fuel cell with now blatter.About $1000.00 in cost after new cell and R/R.It looks like im not getting my aluim floor boards I was supposed to get

Why is it the manufacturers responsibility to keep racing alive? It's the racers and race orgs responsibility. With the ISA it's possible to see a national points championship the could include a manufacturers contingency. Until then you should talk to whatever race org you plan to compete in to encourage them to gets manufacturers to support. But why should Kawi pay a guy racing a rhino or rzr or Polaris pay someone running a Kawi?
1.If the manufactures want to step up and support the products that they sell that would be a smarts buisness marketing oppurtunity.
2.UTV manufactures will not support UTV racing,as they should.
3.Manufactures should come out and support the biggest UTV races in the world here in So.Cal, May be there's a UTV manufa cture rep here on the UNDERGROUND that can get this word across?
If LEGP doesn't get over 42 cars because people don't want to race safe then I DGAF. We don't need someone crashing and dying thus ruining our entire sport and that race like we saw at the Cal 200.
I have been to UTV races since 2006 and a car count of 42 cars taking off the line at once with not a single issue.ANYTHING OFFROAD IS TAKING A RISK! I 100% agree on FIRE SUITS,but let us build our cars.
Look. If all of you hate the ISA and hate the idea of an organized industry then that is fine. Go and campaign against it to all your series promotors. But that is not going to discourage those of us who plan to be here for the long haul of UTV. This industry is growing and it needs some organization so that we can flourish. Again, think of SEMA, AMA, etc. Spend a little money, join the ISA and influence it from within.
I dont hate much been when it comes out of my pocket,It matters.Maybe I should stick to recreational sports.
Man, I am only the media guy but I am already starting to feel like a damn petitioner.
Here's my answers and concerns.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[tyler]

This ISA rule book is worthless unless someone want to use it. I have spoke to many race promoters across the USA and none of them want the ISA rule book.
There will be no ISA at BITD or Lucas Offroad series.
I created the sport of UTV racing and have been sucessfully managing it for 6 years. I have consulted over 100 UTV racers and many promoters and continue to do so. I think ISA should stay out of UTV racing and focus on everything else having to do with UTVs. Just my 2 cents :D

Its hard to argue with that! what I would like to see is more support from the manufacturers(polaris,kawi,canam,ac,YAMAHA). they are the ones making profits on these sales. where is the support for racers? where is the race promotion? I see a few attempts here and there but nothing solid to promote the package. Something needs to be done to save the unlimited utv's in LOORS before the class dies. It may already be too late. you can't expect people to spend spend spend without any reward. I think the ISA could really help UTV racing if they could get some more involvement from companies that want to advertise and market to racers and fans! Companies like Monster or coke, tire companies, automotive or find Some series sponsers like KOH does to help bring money into the sport. Utv racing is a great product to market but nobody is doing it right! Or at least not doing as good as could be done! Just my thoughts as I have been racing for 4 years and still don't know where I will be racing next year just like after corr died and torc went east and sxs series kind of ended. the only thing left was LOORS and it may not be happening for unlimited utv next year. What is the ISA going to do about this? Rules and safety are important and nobody wants people hurt but the rules are mute if no one shows up!! Give us a Solid series with a chance to get media coverage and EVERYBODY will want to fallow the rules!

[Long Travel Ind.]

This ISA rule book is worthless unless someone want to use it. I have spoke to many race promoters across the USA and none of them want the ISA rule book.
There will be no ISA at BITD or Lucas Offroad series.
I created the sport of UTV racing and have been sucessfully managing it for 6 years. I have consulted over 100 UTV racers and many promoters and continue to do so. I think ISA should stay out of UTV racing and focus on everything else having to do with UTVs. Just my 2 cents :D

I'm sorry Cory I mean no disrespect but with a statement like "I created the sport of UTV racing" is completely RIDICULOUS !! I will say you have been managing it for 6 years but successfully no!!

[Long Travel Ind.]

Its hard to argue with that! what I would like to see is more support from the manufacturers(polaris,kawi,canam,ac,YAMAHA). they are the ones making profits on these sales. where is the support for racers? where is the race promotion? I see a few attempts here and there but nothing solid to promote the package. Something needs to be done to save the unlimited utv's in LOORS before the class dies. It may already be too late. you can't expect people to spend spend spend without any reward. I think the ISA could really help UTV racing if they could get some more involvement from companies that want to advertise and market to racers and fans! Companies like Monster or coke, tire companies, automotive or find Some series sponsers like KOH does to help bring money into the sport. Utv racing is a great product to market but nobody is doing it right! Or at least not doing as good as could be done! Just my thoughts as I have been racing for 4 years and still don't know where I will be racing next year just like after corr died and torc went east and sxs series kind of ended. the only thing left was LOORS and it may not be happening for unlimited utv next year. What is the ISA going to do about this? Rules and safety are important and nobody wants people hurt but the rules are mute if no one shows up!! Give us a Solid series with a chance to get media coverage and EVERYBODY will want to fallow the rules!

ask Cory that he is "managing" LOORS

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

Its hard to argue with that! what I would like to see is more support from the manufacturers(polaris,kawi,canam,ac,YAMAHA). they are the ones making profits on these sales. where is the support for racers? where is the race promotion? I see a few attempts here and there but nothing solid to promote the package. Something needs to be done to save the unlimited utv's in LOORS before the class dies. It may already be too late. you can't expect people to spend spend spend without any reward. I think the ISA could really help UTV racing if they could get some more involvement from companies that want to advertise and market to racers and fans! Companies like Monster or coke, tire companies, automotive or find Some series sponsers like KOH does to help bring money into the sport. Utv racing is a great product to market but nobody is doing it right! Or at least not doing as good as could be done! Just my thoughts as I have been racing for 4 years and still don't know where I will be racing next year just like after corr died and torc went east and sxs series kind of ended. the only thing left was LOORS and it may not be happening for unlimited utv next year. What is the ISA going to do about this? Rules and safety are important and nobody wants people hurt but the rules are mute if no one shows up!! Give us a Solid series with a chance to get media coverage and EVERYBODY will want to fallow the rules!
I 100% agree on this full statement and wish we could get something in return.We need to build car counts, not elimanate them.These race series to cost more money it will be a ghost town on the track. I will stick to racing on RESERVATION LAND.
COME RACE ON THE REZ!!!!

[450grl]

A little off subject of the rules.......one thing I want to bring up in regards to firesuits n stuff......I have several spare firesuits that I rarely wear, and I would be happy to bring them to any race we attend and let someone borrow them if they need to. I would even be willing to donate one or two to WORCS just for them to have on hand at their trailer to lend to people who don't have one on race day. I wonder, if other racers do this, if that could help WORCS out at all in 2012, if they start to require fire suits? I may even still have my wrist restraints somewhere.....I would be happy to donate those, as well.

Back on track - I think someone hit the nail on the head with a comment about the rules......I really don't see any value to them. I'm sorry......I just don't. Which sucks, because I do like the people who are involved in the ISA. Perhaps I still don't see the vision of the ISA the way it's meant to be seen? To me it's just another different set of rules that will confuse people looking to get into the sport. We have already had people calling the shop, confused, because they are working on current builds and heard about the new rules and don't understand that they haven't been adopted by any series yet.

If anything, the sport of UTV racing needs more exposure and sponsor value. Joey, thank God for you and UTVUnderground, because you have given just that!! :) In addition, how cool would it be to have a website dedicated to interviews, pictures, race videos, series coverage, posted rulebooks, etc - ALL about UTV racing. Someplace racers can link their sponsors to, link their family and friends to, and see themselves on a regular basis. IMO, that is something that would benefit this sport much more than trying to change and standardize rules that are already working well.

I've said my peace on this thread.....and I'll bow out now. Thanks again, Joey, for giving us a place to even have these discussions!

[Darryl89]

I 100% agree on this full statement and wish we could get something in return.We need to build car counts, not elimanate them.These race series to cost more money it will be a ghost town on the track. I will stick to racing on RESERVATION LAND.
COME RACE ON THE REZ!!!!


I like your last statement... where I'm at in NW New Mexico, we have hundreds of square miles of reservation land, beautiful desert land, wide open land.... and tribes that would probably like to earn some of our hard earned money by letting us race on their land....

I think more promoters need to look at that....


Back to the discussion... I can whole-heartedly agree with safety issues. But keep them reasonable. A stock UTV that rolls over, having a fire suit probably isn't the biggest issue involved in that (important, but probably number 3 or 4 on the needed equipment). Proper roll structures, seating and safety harnesses are necessary, especially in the faster classes. In faster, pro classes, I can see the need for firesuits even more so, especially in the fully caged cars that aren't as easy to get out of.

And stating that long travel kits have to be readily available, off the shelf kits is ridiculous. That rule only ensures that more money is spent, not the other way... Now I know my car isn't legal for racing in the Production 1000 class, but still, to require an off the shelf kit... more money. My gripe was with the Unlimited Class being too much unlimited. Like I said, build up an engine, slap a turbo on it, custom build a super long travel...where do you stop...
Of course, their is a big bore kit for Arctic Cat H2's, takes them to 1100cc's and with some more work, 1200cc's can be acheived...

Stock floorboards for Production classes I can live with. But it seems like there is a major gap between what you rule for Production classes and Unlimited classes. Either you stay pretty much stock with maybe a a LT kit, or you build the wildest, almost anything goes car. Maybe it should be broken into 3 classes, Stock, Modified and Pro Class. Stock is stock, maybe shocks and a muffler with needed safety gear. Modified might be custom cage, aftermarket seats, engine mods, LT kits (homemade or off the shelf). And then Pro is full racing cages, LT kits but retain stock mounting points and material (doing it that way helps ensure that manufacturers will continue to engineer in performance in their OEM machines).

I checked and NMODR isn't adopting any of the ISA rules, and that means BTR probably will shy away from them also. That is 2 grass roots/local organizations. Anyone know what Whiplash will do? If they reject the rules, then that is 3 of the larger racing organizations in SW United States....

Guys, I appreciate the work you are doing, in fact, if you look at the early posts, I was one of your bigger supporters and agreed with you. But I really don't see these rules in this version, being usable or fair to many racers. I think adoption of them without public comments or consideration is not good. If the BLM makes rules without allowing public or user comments, there are lawsuits abounding... I know you didn't want to have to deal with sorting through hundreds of comments, but in something this big, you need to. Build membership first, gain support, then allow the members to vote on different versions or portions of the rules perhaps.

I'd like to see a run down of different race organizations and what rules they plan on using...

BITD- UTVRA's rules
SCORE- Their own rules
Whiplash- ?
NMODR- Modified UTVRA Rules
BTR- Modified UTVRA Rules
WORCS-
KOH- ISA Rules Adopted
VORRA-
LOORS- UTVRA
CORR- UTVRA
Others-?

[Mike L]

Again, I appreciate everyone's input on our rules package and we at the ISA are taking this very seriously!


My personal email address is mike@lashermotorsports.com and I welcome anyone to email me your concerns or comments about the rules package that was created and I will present them to the board and we will try and address the issue. As the ISA is a volunteer organization we will do our best to respond to the issues and concerns as soon as possible.

[DUNE DUMMY 29]

I UNDERSTAND WHAT ISA IS TRYING TO DO BY STANDARDIZING RULES FOR ALL RACING ASSOCIATIONS. LET'S GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO WORK WITH ALL OF THE RACE PROMOTORS , RACERS, MANUFACTURERS, AFTERMARKET COMPANIES TO WORK OUT THE KINKS. IT IS NEVER EASY TO START SOMETHING NEW, BUT I BELIEVE THE ISA HAS THE BEST INTEREST OF OUR SPORT IN MIND IT JUST NEEDS SOME TWEEKING OF THE RULES. SO VOLUNTEER & HELP MAKE THIS WORK FOR ALL CONCERNED.
CORRY YOU ARE RIGHT. THANKS TO JOEY D FOR ALL HE HAS & IS DOING FOR ALL OF US.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

I like your last statement... where I'm at in NW New Mexico, we have hundreds of square miles of reservation land, beautiful desert land, wide open land.... and tribes that would probably like to earn some of our hard earned money by letting us race on their land....

I think more promoters need to look at that....


Back to the discussion... I can whole-heartedly agree with safety issues. But keep them reasonable. A stock UTV that rolls over, having a fire suit probably isn't the biggest issue involved in that (important, but probably number 3 or 4 on the needed equipment). Proper roll structures, seating and safety harnesses are necessary, especially in the faster classes. In faster, pro classes, I can see the need for firesuits even more so, especially in the fully caged cars that aren't as easy to get out of.

And stating that long travel kits have to be readily available, off the shelf kits is ridiculous. That rule only ensures that more money is spent, not the other way... Now I know my car isn't legal for racing in the Production 1000 class, but still, to require an off the shelf kit... more money. My gripe was with the Unlimited Class being too much unlimited. Like I said, build up an engine, slap a turbo on it, custom build a super long travel...where do you stop...
Of course, their is a big bore kit for Arctic Cat H2's, takes them to 1100cc's and with some more work, 1200cc's can be acheived...

Stock floorboards for Production classes I can live with. But it seems like there is a major gap between what you rule for Production classes and Unlimited classes. Either you stay pretty much stock with maybe a a LT kit, or you build the wildest, almost anything goes car. Maybe it should be broken into 3 classes, Stock, Modified and Pro Class. Stock is stock, maybe shocks and a muffler with needed safety gear. Modified might be custom cage, aftermarket seats, engine mods, LT kits (homemade or off the shelf). And then Pro is full racing cages, LT kits but retain stock mounting points and material (doing it that way helps ensure that manufacturers will continue to engineer in performance in their OEM machines).

I checked and NMODR isn't adopting any of the ISA rules, and that means BTR probably will shy away from them also. That is 2 grass roots/local organizations. Anyone know what Whiplash will do? If they reject the rules, then that is 3 of the larger racing organizations in SW United States....

Guys, I appreciate the work you are doing, in fact, if you look at the early posts, I was one of your bigger supporters and agreed with you. But I really don't see these rules in this version, being usable or fair to many racers. I think adoption of them without public comments or consideration is not good. If the BLM makes rules without allowing public or user comments, there are lawsuits abounding... I know you didn't want to have to deal with sorting through hundreds of comments, but in something this big, you need to. Build membership first, gain support, then allow the members to vote on different versions or portions of the rules perhaps.

I'd like to see a run down of different race organizations and what rules they plan on using...

BITD- UTVRA's rules
SCORE- Their own rules
Whiplash- ?
NMODR- Modified UTVRA Rules
BTR- Modified UTVRA Rules
WORCS-
KOH- ISA Rules Adopted
VORRA-
LOORS- UTVRA
CORR- UTVRA
Others-?
This is how we roll in So Cal,
RULES FOR GP'S
Indian RESERVATION 2011 Soboba GP- Their own
Indian RESERVATION 2009,2010 PALA GP- Their own
Lake Elsinore GP 2011-Their own

CAHUILLA INDIAN RESERVATION would be a great spot for the next GP!!!

SOBOBA Casino throws down CASH PRIZES "$4000.00" and they can care less about a SXS or UTV.

LETS GO POLARIS,KAWI,ARCTIC CAT,CAN-AM,YAMAHA,and even JOHN DEERE.

If it wasn't for UTVunderground and SOBOBA GP UTV racing might have fell off the earth! UTVunderground found me and turned my car into a race car from a family recreational UTV.

THIS IS WHAT THE UTVUNDERGROUND IS ALL ABOUT.

[07fj]

15.10.4: Stock floorboards as delivered from manufacture are required on all vehicles. Floorboards must
cover the entire area from in front of the pedal assembly to behind the seat(s), and from the outside edge
to the outside edge of the vehicle.

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that this was just poorly worded .

I agree, the floorboards and full skidpan are two completely different parts.
for production Stock???? I agree keep the floorboards and require a skidpan, whether it be alum or UMHW or Fiberskins, or stock etcc.......

I do think it is funny, that now SR1s needing reverse has come up, I said this before that Reverse should have been optional from the beginning, but everyone jump on the have to have one kit only bandwagon at the time. Not Hatin, but I am pointing this out as many of you bashed me before about this, and I know many others brought it up to Corry S Also for LOORRS.

Someone mentioned that it should not matter if you home built it or a fab shop made your arms or cage etcc..., I agree as long as it is within the width limits, but not for production classes, this also goes for SR1 IMO,

Maybe ISA should have (or maybe they did) worked with all the race promoters, to organize and make common ground rules, so peeps can race across many venues, instead of making new rules that may cause others to have to modify thier cars in order race in a particular series now. (if adopted)
This is what I think ISA should have gone after, Common rules. Short course rules and Offroad rules and be done.

Commonality will improve our sport and race turnouts.

Good Luck to all

[dnf736]

Like I said, all this is making my case.

That said after browsing this thread I can think of two sentences that would have helped prevent some of the knee jerk reactions and hostile responses.

1. "Rough Draft"
2. "Seeking public input"


Rule makers, this rule book was presented as gospel, and in the process managed to stir up some peeps off which I’m sure wasn’t the intent but, it could have been handled better. UTV Racing is a niche market within a niche market, be gentle.

This forum is the best place for a positive discussion to take place and to be heard so go back, read the rule book again, be calm and speak up, just be professional.

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10653/popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

[Darryl89]

Like I said, all this is making my case.

That said after browsing this thread I can think of two sentences that would have help prevent the knee jerk reactions and hostile responses.

1. "Rough Draft"
2. "Seeking public input"


Rule makers, this rule book was presented as gospel, and in the process (obviously) managed to piss some peeps off which I’m sure wasn’t the intent but, it could have been handled better. UTV Racing is a niche market within a niche market, be gentle.

This forum is the best place for a positive discussion to take place and to be heard so go back, read the rule book again, be calm and speak up, just be professional.

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10653/popcorn.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

I pretty much agree. I will state though, I did email a member and received the response that this was what the rules would be, until the members could vote for a change which would be year from now.

I know the rules won't affect me for BITD, NMODR and other series, but my concern is KOH. But seeing that Jagged X is probably running a stock XP again this year and there isn't enough time for someone to really build a one-off unlimited, I will be at KOH for 2012.
I do feel that the intent of ISA is good, I think that having them to be a common voice for our sport and dissemination of information, etc, will be great. I still support their existence. I just don't agree with all the rules... but, hopefully the rules will evolve with our imput...

[Jeff Knoll]

Lets see what I can do too address some of these concerns.

Maybe a little backstory is in order. Last year I went searching for a set of rules for KOH. I found the UTVRA rules that where just not going to meet my needs, and an assortment of smaller sanctions rules that did nothing for safety (like racing in shorts). I met Mike Lasher, Reid Nordin, and Tim Orchard along the way. Talks about the sports direction shortcomings and a bunch of introductions developed into a bunch of people talking about the sport of SXS racing, recreation, and land use issues.

I am gonna cut to the chase. There has been a lot of talk in this thread about getting manufactures involved. Bringing in more money, and increasing car counts. While I am honored that some may think I sat down and whittled out a 71 page document on the sport of UTV racing by myself, lets be serious, I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of each machine to do that. Outside of three people every one of the folks that laid a hand on this document has had experience with UTVRA and wanted to see some changes; I have never met Cory S., I don’t know him or have an opinion.

Here is the list of people that developed this rulebook. They are the founding members of ISA.
Jeff Knoll KOH Co Founder
Mike Lasher Monster Energy Kawasaki, UTVRA Co Founder
Reid Nordin Kawasaki Team Green
Time Orchard OMF wheels UTVRA co founder
Grant George Funco
Randy Anderson Walker Evans Racing
Brian Bennett Long travel Industries
Dean Bulloch Arctic Cat dealer Cedar City, Utah (long time racer)
Brit Mansell Octane Media & Polaris racer from the southeast.
Bill Schueler Jagged X
Scott Mears XMF
Rob Muzzy Muzzy’s Performance
Joey D UTV Underground

So when I see statements like we want more manufacture involvement not more rules, I’m not really sure what to say. This list should give some insight into what some of the manufactures are interested in seeing in order to get behind the sport of racing.

The old saying “What wins on Sunday sells on Monday” might be the basis for some of what you are seeing represented in this rulebook. Most of the people on that list are seasoned veterans of racing, it was a privilege for me to work with them and hear stories about the glory days of Mickey Thompson off road racing, what worked, and what did not. It has been said on here already that some of the people on the committee knew well that they where making their own cars obsolete, but for the long term growth they believed that making that sacrifice was worth it.

The ISA is a 501C3 non profit managed by a Board of directors. That board currently has two open positions. This board may look completely different in 2 or 3 years. The membership of the ISA dictates the direction, not me, or any one single person. We have established what we feel is a solid foundation to build on; changes will come at the direction of the membership regarding rules, land use issues, and recreation opportunities.

I have been tasked to drive the first round of the track for the ISA. It is a position I do not take lightly. I respect the people in this industry who have honored me with this responsibility. I will do everything in my power to make this a successful association. I have been talking to a number of race promoters who have been looking for an opportunity like the ISA. Some are located all over the US, some are west coast, and some are east coast. Our goal is to establish a unified set of safety standards, and a class structure that although not perfect will allow a racer to compete at a number of races across a wide selection of areas. The ISA believes that this is in the best interest of the sport, and is what it needs to attract a bigger involvement from the manufactures.

I did not expect that we would find everyone jumping for joy over this rue book, but I think the issues that have been pointed out are somewhat easy to adjust. Do not let the 71 pages intimidate you. As pointed out by Brian, if you actually count the rules for one class its only 7 pages. The California 200 has forever changed the rules of racing. Manufactures expect a certain level of protection to make the investment; our general rules allow a promoter an opportunity to meet a lot of those requirements.

What I see from this thread is pretty limited; Floorboards, suspension, and reverse. Spread across a number of classes I would say that’s pretty good. Looks like we are not that far off when you consider the size of the task we attempted. I don’t think making a few changes to get this thing dialed in is out of the question, but I caution going down the road of soliciting changes and making them as they come because I went through that with Rock crawling and the squeaky wheel (the guy who bitches the most) always seemed to show up with the best car and a rule change to meet his needs. I am just one vote out of 5, and we actually need two more board members so my first suggestion is that if you really want to see this work, you become a member $25.00, get involved, and offer a reasonable solution to a problem that may hurt the growth of the sport.

I think the best way to address individual rule issues is generally not in a public forum but that’s just from my experience. Members obviously will have a better opportunity to make a change than a non-member who really has no dog in the hunt. Building a document like this is a tough task, and I would expect the BOD would consider allowing some subtle changes and clarifications while we work through the bugs. I can tell you getting promoters across the country on one set of rules is going to require some flexibility, but we need a standard to build on.

Rome was not built in a day, but we are doing our best to build a national contingency program for our racers. Large companies do not just drop the coin with out a complete plan and sorry to say we are just volunteers at this point.

There are lots of things that need to be done to build something like this, and if you feel strongly about your sport the ISA is formatted to allow you to take the bull by the horns. Maybe we missed the target, but you have the ability to take the next shot and improve on this foundation.
Our goals are shifting now when it comes to racing efforts. Now that we have a set of rules we can focus on increasing racing opportunities. There must be a ton of racing opportunities across the USA, because the statement that no one wants these rules has not deterred us from great conversations with promoters all over the US. Some have special needs, but most all of them like the idea of a solid platform.

ISA has begun to formulate contingency plans with our Charter Corporate membership, and we are actively soliciting additional UTV industry leaders to help us improve the potential of a national championship. What sounds better? “I am the rally raid champion, or I am the ISA National Champion?

That does not even scratch the surface of the work that is being done on the land use side. That’s a whole other topic of excitement.


I feel pretty safe in speaking on behalf of the ISA Board. We want to work with you, not against you. There is a process, but I personally don’t get to wave my magic wand and change what ever rule I want, that would be contrary to everything the ISA founders wanted for this association.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

These are all the things that need to be changed or add to my car to make it in the PRODUCTION700 class. Hopefully they can open up the rules a little,If not I wont be racing next year.

13.6.3 LIGHTS
All vehicles must have a minimum of two taillights, two brake lights and one rearward facing amber light.

13.1.4:
Stock suspension pivot points must be retained and connecting points must be free of cracks and
in good physical condition as determined by the Chief Technical Inspector or his/her delegate.
13.7.2:

Un modified stock fuel systems are approved. Safety fuel cells are required for any vehicle that
has modified its factory fuel system. Safety fuel cells shall consist of a bladder enclosed in a smoothskinned
container. The container shall be constructed of 20-gage steel, 0,060 Inch Aluminum, or 0.125
inch Marlex. All fittings must be built into the container skin and bonded to the container skin as a integral
part of the tank or mechanically sealed by a ring and counter-ring system by either flat joint or an O-ring.
Internal baffling is mandatory in all fuel cells. Foam is an acceptable internal baffling. Bladder construction
shall be of nylon or Delcron woven fabric impregnated and coated with a fuel resistant elastomer, Rotary
molded Polymer cells are acceptable when encapsulated in a container constructed of 20 ga. Steel, or
0.060 inch aluminum.
13.9.11: DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
All vehicles must have a five-way, five-point H-style driver restraint system for each occupant. Driver
restraints must incorporate a lap belt, anti-submarine strap, and shoulder straps.


1.Raising entry fees might be an issue at some local events.
2.Are the racers responsible for getting there own numbers made?

For all the local SoCal race events I try to get product sponsors such as SUMMERS BROTHERS RACING,RZ mask,SDR motorsports ETC and anybody that wants to support UTV RACING.
All the other companys should step up and give something back to the UTV community.
SUPPORT UTV RACING

[JoeyD23]

Dan you didn't change your suspension mounting points? You have shock towers but I would think that's ok. Don't you have the stock taillights? If not wire them in and hang an amber. Big deal. The fuel cell thing is as such that you either can run a stock fuel cell and system or a modified cell that has a bladder. That's a normal rule. And 5point harnesses are no big deal either. You should already have those.


I spoke with Mike and Jeff at the ISA today and everyone's voice is being heard. We need you guys to sign up for the ISA and help us make some changes. More info is to come down soon.

[Jeff Knoll]

These are all the things that need to be changed or add to my car to make it in the PRODUCTION700 class. Hopefully they can open up the rules a little,If not I wont be racing next year.

13.6.3 LIGHTS
All vehicles must have a minimum of two taillights, two brake lights and one rearward facing amber light.

13.1.4:
Stock suspension pivot points must be retained and connecting points must be free of cracks and
in good physical condition as determined by the Chief Technical Inspector or his/her delegate.
13.7.2:

Un modified stock fuel systems are approved. Safety fuel cells are required for any vehicle that
has modified its factory fuel system. Safety fuel cells shall consist of a bladder enclosed in a smoothskinned
container. The container shall be constructed of 20-gage steel, 0,060 Inch Aluminum, or 0.125
inch Marlex. All fittings must be built into the container skin and bonded to the container skin as a integral
part of the tank or mechanically sealed by a ring and counter-ring system by either flat joint or an O-ring.
Internal baffling is mandatory in all fuel cells. Foam is an acceptable internal baffling. Bladder construction
shall be of nylon or Delcron woven fabric impregnated and coated with a fuel resistant elastomer, Rotary
molded Polymer cells are acceptable when encapsulated in a container constructed of 20 ga. Steel, or
0.060 inch aluminum.
13.9.11: DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
All vehicles must have a five-way, five-point H-style driver restraint system for each occupant. Driver
restraints must incorporate a lap belt, anti-submarine strap, and shoulder straps.


1.Raising entry fees might be an issue at some local events.
2.Are the racers responsible for getting there own numbers made?

For all the local SoCal race events I try to get product sponsors such as SUMMERS BROTHERS RACING,RZ mask,SDR motorsports ETC and anybody that wants to support UTV RACING.
All the other companys should step up and give something back to the UTV community.
SUPPORT UTV RACING



Its pretty hard for me to understand what needs to change in the rules if you don't share why your car does not meet those rules. If a few lights on the back of your car are keeping you from racing I am not sure what to say? Joey beat me too it.

[Crowdog]

I created the sport of UTV racing and have been sucessfully managing it for 6 years.

All bow down to the god of UTV racing....

[Seaver]

wow, 71 pages.. 7 pages per class.. I guess I am to new to see the need for this.
2 reasons why car count is dismal at LOORS, Money and rule package.

2 reasons why WORCS has the highest car count of any series you have brought up.. Rules are light and entries are cheap.
I hope WORCS Stays away from ISA. We can stay safe without 7 pages of rules per class. Stay away from WORCS guys. leave it alone.

[Rusty5150]

Here is my 2cents. Let me start by saying I do not have a dog in this fight. I dont have an agenda, I dont own a floorboard company, I dont build cars all I am doing is looking at from the outside.

13.0 ISA Production 700

13.10.4:Stock floorboards as delivered from manufacture are required on all vehicles. Floorboards must cover the entire area from in front of the pedal assembly to behind the seat(s), and from the outside edge to the outside edge of the vehicle.

<O:p</O:pI think this rule needs to be adjusted. I don’t see any performance advantage for aftermarket or custom floors. I think the rule should be a max width (77" ISA SPEC). Below is a list of pro’s and cons of this rule. Feel free to add things as you see them. I am not very smart so I need help.

<O:p</O:pPros:<O:p</O:p
Cheaper to build<O:p</O:p
Retain the stock look<O:p</O:p
Equal playing field<O:p</O:p
Easy for officials to tech<O:p</O:p
Able to replace at your local dealers<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Cons:<O:p</O:p
Limited build options<O:p</O:p
Difficult to remove for repairs<O:p</O:p
Hard impacts can cause a crack<O:p</O:p
Expensive to replace if broken<O:p</O:p
Excluding many cars already built<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
As I see it many of the Pros are a benefit if you choose this OPTION during your build. <O:p</O:p

[staggs]

wow, 71 pages.. 7 pages per class.. I guess I am to new to see the need for this.
2 reasons why car count is dismal at LOORS, Money and rule package.

2 reasons why WORCS has the highest car count of any series you have brought up.. Rules are light and entries are cheap.
I hope WORCS Stays away from ISA. We can stay safe without 7 pages of rules per class. Stay away from WORCS guys. leave it alone.
well said

[SXS Machine]

Where is a list of the members of ISA? To be open and transparent (and anyone can get a order for list anyway even in the US?) shouldn't we know who has bought in and who hasn't?

Remuneration for Directors set by directors and not an independent auditor in line with standard practice for that industry type.

Holes holes holes..... :rolleyes:

And rules?? Whoa daddy, we need a cage and other safety devices and thats it just now. Soon we will get into modified. But our rule book for Australia will be written by the regulatory authority that insurance underwrites the events and thats CAMS.

We dont have the legacy of older recreational vehicles built into racers so we don't need legacy rules. its too much. :confused:

[JoeyD23]

All bow down to the god of UTV racing....

lol. No offense Corry but I don't think anyone remembers you in 2005 racing at Elsinore and I know UTVs were running there before any UTVRA was started. So please drop this "you created the utv racing world.". Reality is Mike Lasher and Tim Orchard BOTH founded the UTVRA with you and both sit on the ISA board.

Again, you know I dig you and we get along and I personally appreciate all your past and current efforts for our sport.

[JoeyD23]

wow, 71 pages.. 7 pages per class.. I guess I am to new to see the need for this.
2 reasons why car count is dismal at LOORS, Money and rule package.

2 reasons why WORCS has the highest car count of any series you have brought up.. Rules are light and entries are cheap.
I hope WORCS Stays away from ISA. We can stay safe without 7 pages of rules per class. Stay away from WORCS guys. leave it alone.

You guys crack me up. 71 pages...... Ahhhhhhhhh. lol. You have no rule book to compare too as far as size and if you look your class doesn't change at all....lol this is so crazy how resistant you all are and you aren't even reading the book. You love UTVs so much that you just want it to stay the same forever. Well guess what, UTVs are changing and changing fast. How many times does it have to be said that this book has the FUTURE in mind. This book is designed to help keep cost and RULES in check!!!!!! If this book was in place years ago then you would have more than 4 unlimited cars at LOORRS. Don't believe me, then ask the 4 guys racing yourself. They raced themselves out of a class because of the lack of limitations thus creating a money series where you better be packing a $10k motor or don't even bother showing up. And trust me, WORCS would end up the same way in another 3-4 years. Well that is unless someone kills themselves in a stock caged UTV first? Some of you guys need to look at the big picture here. I think it's easier for me since I see all sides equally and have no money tied up in a current or old race UTV. Those of you who are already vested seem more worried about losing what you have more so than excited with how you can adapt and grow in the sport or particular series. Read the book, all big huge scary 71 pages of it and you will see 90% of it is common sense and safety stuff, 5% is new stuff, and 5% is existing stuff. There is 6 classes, not just 3 covered in the book and not all orgs have to adopt all 6 classes. As for cost, who says ISA is changing entry fees? That's not the ISAs decision??

Am I still awake doing this today? lol. I really love all of you and you know I appreciate all of you. I am not trying to be an ass I am just trying to help explain. This site is the best for so many reasons but respect and knowledge is #1 to me. The fact that we can have such a tough discussion and keep it friendly and respectable is awesome. You would never see it go down like this on Pirate or RZR-F'RS.

Let's keep it going!!! BTW I think the floorboard rule, SR1 reverse rule, and LT kit rules will and can be changed but by the laws we need to get people to sign up for memberships and offer the suggestions from within as members We are talking $25.00 people!!!!! Come on!!!! Be a part of the solution and the future. Help shape the sport from within!!! Don't just be another block in the negativity and contentment wall!!!!

[megonzo]

There is some wiggle room in the rules. Not much.

The cost of membership is reasonable.

My only concern thus far is the fuel tank for the RZR.

[JoeyD23]

There is some wiggle room in the rules. Not much.

The cost of membership is reasonable.

My only concern thus far is the fuel tank for the RZR.

As long as you leave your fuel system stock then you have nothing to worry about. If you relocate it then you just need to use the appropriate cell with bladder. Easy peesy!

[megonzo]

Jeff has stressed it many times in threads here. I may not have stressed it enough. While the ISA does want to make a more uniformed UTV racing community, it does not want to come in and just crush whats out there and rebuild it. Everyone who sat in those meetings to help get this ball rolling knows very well the consequences to doing that and knows the reality of that.

What the ISA DOES want to do is foster growth of the sport. The rule book was as much written for NEW potential organizations to have a defined rule book to lean upon as it was for existing organizations to consider using. A bad example would be Soboba. Should they want rules to break up there classes where do they go? They end up going to a WORCS book or a BITD, or????? My point is the rules are here not just for existing series but new and future series. The rules are here for series' like WORCS who are exploding but need to get a bit more safe.

While the rules are firm for now, rememeber this is year 1! The ISA needs some time to work out the bugs, iron out the wrinkles, and fine tune itself for the future. I would bet that if you went way back when and looked at the history of the AMA you would find some very similar fears, questions, and perceptions. But one thing we MUST all agree on is that we need this sport to grow, we need to have a strong voice, and it can help to have a MEMBER ran association like this to help give us some foundation.

Rome was not built in a day. Neither is the ISA. While it took a year to get off the ground, it will take many more to dial it in so that all can feel comfortable with it. I am confident in the board and those associated who helped us with building this foundation, they want the best for this industry. We are all vested here both personally and professionally.

The rules were on the site, I thought it would be good to get some discussion going now. We need to hear the people of this sport, those involved today and those who want to be involved a like. We need you all to speak your minds, and help us with building what could be one of the greatest things to ever come from UTV racing. How cool is it to think that a couple of guys worried about UTV racing helped shape an association that goes out and possibly helps define how manufacturers build units and how trails are designed? This is so much bigger potentially then just some rules.

BITD is set with their rules and LOORRS while it is struggling with car counts is not going to adopt anytime in the near future and maybe never, who knows? WORCS is interested for many reasons and a lot of other series' are also wanting to talk and consider bringing the ISA in to help them with their aspirations of building some successful UTV classes.

I speak all of this as a lover of the sport and a true supporter of the ISA and its goals. While I don't agree 1000% with all of the rules, I do agree that some things have to be sacrificed. I do hope all of you with concerns would look forward and HELP the ISA and not shun it or dismiss it. Understand its heart is with all of you and all of you have a voice and place to offer your opinions, advice, and experience. If you don't like something then help make a change, its the American way!!!!


The rules that UTV's followed last year were ULTRA4 rules w/mods. The ISA rules are much more Dick & Jane friendly.

If I can understand'em, then anyone really should. If I can run KOH, then anyone can.

KOH, is a different animal. Carnage, desert and technical challenges. IMO, it's the driver that makes the race..the machine helps maxamize the drivers winning ability. If you can drive a fast machine, then do it. But speed won't get you over the rocks.

I'm tending to like the clarity of the ISA rules as opposed to ULTRA4. ISA is very UTV specific--and this is cool. ;)

Edit to add---The fun and friendships are at least 90% of KOH too. Dry camping out in the desert for a week is great way to meet people. At the end of the week, most smell the same. <grin>

[speedracer]

the isa needs to down size its rule book.bitd,loors,worcs,podium produtions, and gncc never had this many pages. you need to keep it simple and basic and i know there are people who will always be in argument but if the majority is in agreement then it will work. right now the isa is not looking good.some of the board members that have commented in this thread have mentioned if you dont like it then dont join it.well what are you going to do when nobody joins?the isa is nothing or no good without any members.it will never reach a "international level" with a board like that. i think it needs to go back to the drawing board.Worcs and gncc are the most sucessful sxs race series in this country and there is a reason behind it.they should both be left alone and i think the isa needs to stay out of the racing circuit for now until they get this rulebook figured out and use thier energy towards keeping some of the off highway parks open,getting new riding spots opened up,oranizing runs or riding events, things of that nature.there are many utvs out there in the usa but maybe a total of one percent are actual racers.

[megonzo]

I hope I don't get flamed for my thoughts, but...... I still don't undertand why or who decided that re-writing all UTV rules was even necessary? Why would the ISA write rules that make an entire, established class illegal (like the SR1 class)? Why try to change classes and rules that have been running successfully up until now?

I personally think that UTV racing is going well, and there is no need to try to rock the boat with new classes and rules. WORCS has been going awesome this year. The Saboba GP has been very successful since it began. GNCC racing back East has a huge turnout and very established classes. LOORRS has been working well since it began, and BITD has been motoring along with their entry numbers as well.

Do I think there should be some safety precautions added at times? Definitely. I'm ALL for safety rules......I also think there is a judgement call that should be made by the promoter of each event, as to how many safety rules should be implemented. These rules, IMO, should be up to the promoter according to their own event, because it's the promoter that will ultimately be held responsible if someone gets hurt. Again, I'm ALL for safety - and I think a standardized SUGGESTED safety rulebook is a great idea, but I don't feel any one entitity should be dictating what a promoter does with their series.

IMO, trying to standardize UTV classes across the board is misguided. BITD has different rules from LOORRS, and for a good reason. We are talking desert cars compared to short-course cars. These are DIFFERENT types of racing, and should have different rules. There is a reason why a Pro 2 truck is VERY different than a Trophy Truck. There is a reason why LOORRS and TORC rules are very different from SCORE and BITD.

WORCS racing is inexpensive, grassroots, run whatcha brung and play around on a MX course type of racing - different from any other series out there, except maybe GNCC. Again, IMO they should have their own classes with their own rules.

As consumers and racers, we are smart enough to take a look at what series we want to run, look at the rules (their differences and their similarities), and build our race vehicles to be competitive in whatever series we want to run. I just don't see the need to standardize these rules for anyone, really.

It's quite possible that the promoters and organizers will also see no need to change their rules, and this entire discussion could be null and void - ultimately, it is every series decision as to what rules they want to run, and they usually know their market pretty well.

Anyway, as a racer and someone who has been ingrained in this sport for a while now, those are my thoughts.


KOH is a completely different format than LOORS, WORCS, BITD, and SCORE. It combines two very different, if not polar opposite forms of racing. Rocks & Desert. I've read a few lines in this thread with concern about an SRI car not having reverse...but yet should be allowed to do rocks. Corry, that just doesn't make sense. If you make an improper approach to a rock obstical you might want to use reverse to clean up your approach to avoid a flip, tip or crash. I feel that for safties sake reverse should be required. The ISA rules will (IMO) provide a UTV friendly set of rules, for the utv owner...weather novice, expert or anywhere in between. Saftey being rule 1.

Just my 2 cents. :cool:

[Rusty5150]

The number of pages is irrelevant. The fact is 90% of the rules for each class do not affect anyone. The other 10% of the rules are so minor I can't believe everyone is freaking out. I would really like to hear from people that have actually sat down and read the rules and compared them to thier car. After doing this post up the things that affect your car and prevent you from racing or push you into Ultra 4.

How many rules are in place just to drive your car everyday for work. Rules are put in place to provide a fair and safe platform for everyone to build upon. With the current rules that WORCS has it's pretty simple to out build your competition fast. In Lucas pulls the UTV plug where do you think these race cars are going?

This is how I am looking at this rule book.
1. Detailed rules for each class. This prevents someone from bending a rule and then everyone protesting. This way it's clearly written in the rule book.
2. Detailed safety rules. I don't even think this is up for discussion.
3. This rule book protects the classes and the people racing in them from turning into a Lucas Oil class. Most of you think the reason Lucas gets a poor turn out is because of the heavy rules and high entry fees. I can tell while that's part of it the bigger part is $100000 UTVs. How many of you have a $15000 1000cc race motor in your car with a back up in the trailer?

I say if you are having problems reading the 71 pages and you don't want to see you UTV progress into the future like every other form of Motorsports than it's a sad day for UTV's. With this mindset we might as well go back to horse and buggies.

Ok, I am done.

Sorry for any spelling errors or missing words. My fingers and my IPhone are not good friends.

[Darryl89]

The number of pages is irrelevant. The fact is 90% of the rules for each class do not affect anyone. The other 10% of the rules are so minor I can't believe everyone is freaking out. I would really like to hear from people that have actually sat down and read the rules and compared them to thier car. After doing this post up the things that affect your car and prevent you from racing or push you into Ultra 4.

How many rules are in place just to drive your car everyday for work. Rules are put in place to provide a fair and safe platform for everyone to build upon. With the current rules that WORCS has it's pretty simple to out build your competition fast. In Lucas pulls the UTV plug where do you think these race cars are going?

This is how I am looking at this rule book.
1. Detailed rules for each class. This prevents someone from bending a rule and then everyone protesting. This way it's clearly written in the rule book.
2. Detailed safety rules. I don't even think this is up for discussion.
3. This rule book protects the classes and the people racing in them from turning into a Lucas Oil class. Most of you think the reason Lucas gets a poor turn out is because of the heavy rules and high entry fees. I can tell while that's part of it the bigger part is $100000 UTVs. How many of you have a $15000 1000cc race motor in your car with a back up in the trailer?

I say if you are having problems reading the 71 pages and you don't want to see you UTV progress into the future like every other form of Motorsports than it's a sad day for UTV's. With this mindset we might as well go back to horse and buggies.

Ok, I am done.

Sorry for any spelling errors or missing words. My fingers and my IPhone are not good friends.

While I have problems with the rules in the Unlimited 4 Class, that really have no limit and will proliferate $100,000 UTVs, most of what Rusty said I will agree with.

I believe we need safety rules. Proper cages, safety nets, 4 or 5 point harness (5 point preferred), containment seats, fire extinguishers and such. Fire Suits should be worn, rated helmets, etc... I commend Corry W. for mentioning that she would be willing to bring her extra suits to races and let others use them (but Corry, I don't think many of us could fit in them..LOL).
It's nice to keep grass-roots racing simple and inexpensive, but keep in mind the events past of accidents and how much publicity they receive.

Rusty, my problem with the rules relates to the Unlimited 4 Class being a "the sky is the limit" class. Doing exactly what you said, creating $100,000 UTV's with $15,000 motors. I prefer to race my Prowler in the Unlimited 4 Class, but don't want to be sandbagged by some guy with a 1700cc Vulcan motor or APEX turbo motor. Even Unlimited classes need some guidelines. Like the motor must be a UTV available motor for Unlimited 4, or for Unlimited 2, a street-bike motor under 1050cc.
And having a rule that states that LT kits must be off-the-shelf for sale kits destroys the grass-roots, inexpensive route also. I can build a kit for half of what the shops charge, so why not let me build my own. If it's not as good as the LTI or HCR kits, fine, that's my problem.

The floorboard has no bearing on me, I managed to put the OEM floorboard in over the tubing cage, fit perfectly (but an OEM Prowler floorboard only goes to the front edge of the seats). But I can see some having a problem with that. If they can't fit a OEM floorboard, then that is a case for them being in Unlimited 4 (but they shouldn't be running against 1700cc or APEX turbo motors).

I would love to run the WORCS series now and then. I like how they try to keep it simple and inexpensive for the racers, that is how you grow a sport. But open the rules for someone with a big pocketbook to build a class dominating machine that none of us could compete against. If that were to happen, then no one would race except that one team with the deep pockets. I see that being a problem with Unlimited 4. (Keep in mind, we are talking about Unlimited 4, not Ultra 4).

That being said, it sounds like the powers to be are looking at the rules and considering changes perhaps. I commend them for listening and looking at them again. I thank everyone here for discussing these rules.

Lets go race now!!!

[Jeff Knoll]

right now the isa is not looking good.some of the board members that have commented in this thread have mentioned if you dont like it then dont join it.well what are you going to do when nobody joins?

I think if you are going to make a statement like this it is appropriate that you quote where that was said.

[Jeff Knoll]

Where is a list of the members of ISA? To be open and transparent (and anyone can get a order for list anyway even in the US?) shouldn't we know who has bought in and who hasn't?

Remuneration for Directors set by directors and not an independent auditor in line with standard practice for that industry type.

Holes holes holes..... :rolleyes:

And rules?? Whoa daddy, we need a cage and other safety devices and thats it just now. Soon we will get into modified. But our rule book for Australia will be written by the regulatory authority that insurance underwrites the events and thats CAMS.

We dont have the legacy of older recreational vehicles built into racers so we don't need legacy rules. its too much. :confused:

I'm not really sure what you are getting at? Membership has been open about two weeks so its not gonna blow your skirt up to see who is a member, but I already posted the people who where involved in the rule committee. I know it may be a little tough for people outside of the US to understand but the US does not have a regulatory system in place for motorsports events of any kind. We are lucky enough to get to govern for the people by the people, and the debate you are seeing is a typical by product of this type of system. Walk into our Nations capitol on any given day and you would see the same kind of a debate on any given subject. This type of conversation is what makes America the greatest nation on the planet.

[the stripping shop]

I'm not really sure what you are getting at? Membership has been open about two weeks so its not gonna blow your skirt up to see who is a member, but I already posted the people who where involved in the rule committee. I know it may be a little tough for people outside of the US to understand but the US does not have a regulatory system in place for motorsports events of any kind. We are lucky enough to get to govern for the people by the people, and the debate you are seeing is a typical by product of this type of system. Walk into our Nations capitol on any given day and you would see the same kind of a debate on any given subject. This type of conversation is what makes America the greatest nation on the planet.

well said

[450grl]

KOH is a completely different format than LOORS, WORCS, BITD, and SCORE. It combines two very different, if not polar opposite forms of racing. Rocks & Desert. I've read a few lines in this thread with concern about an SRI car not having reverse...but yet should be allowed to do rocks. Corry, that just doesn't make sense. If you make an improper approach to a rock obstical you might want to use reverse to clean up your approach to avoid a flip, tip or crash. I feel that for safties sake reverse should be required. The ISA rules will (IMO) provide a UTV friendly set of rules, for the utv owner...weather novice, expert or anywhere in between. Saftey being rule 1.

Just my 2 cents. :cool:

I have no interest in racing KOH. I don't have a KOH UTV...I have a shortcourse car. What I voiced my concerns with is the ISA trying to push these rules on EVERY series, including the ones I currently race in. That doesn't seem like it's going to be a problem, however, so I'm gonna sit back and watch and see what happens.

[the stripping shop]

"right now the isa is not looking good.some of the board members that have commented in this thread have mentioned if you dont like it then dont join it"
You know what is funny about this statement is Bill france said the the same thing to nascar drivers. So they started a drivers union he told them to pound sand. Everybody told him he was wrong, boy if look at nascar association now who was wrong. that was in the 70's look at it now. Not saying the ISA will get that big but everything takes time. On the whole SR1 thing it is only relevent in lucas oil. Last time i checked not one has showed up to race BITD race. You cant count the guy that one bilek 2 years in row because it was not a SR1 to weller rules/lucas.

[Jeff Knoll]

Just so I can wrap my head around this. The rules are broken into sections so I am going to go through them section by section. If we can't be effective and people are just gonna say to hell with the ISA I won't bother. I will continue down the path I have been tasked with. I have jobs that pay me that are a hell of a lot more important to me right now.

Forward and general rules No complaints

Beginner class No complaints

Production 700 Floorboards, someone wants to run a motor swap
Confusion about suspension mounting points that might need clarification,

Production 850 No complaints but I have to assume that Floorboards are an issues potentially someone might have an issue with suspension.

Production 1000 Floorboards, suspension,

Unlimited 4 Turbo's, unlimited in its nature is an issue.

Unlimited 2 Reverse. (Corry you made a very good case, I am pretty sure it was over looked.)



From memory as we had a shit ton of meetings on the rules. The floorboard issue was in response to some of the things that drove up costs for current racing series. Look at the list of people who made the rules, they have a pretty good handle on what drove up costs. Its pretty easy to loosen up rules its a whole lot harder to tighten them up.

I can tell you with out a doubt, that the Production 700 class which had a working name of "Legends" was put together to bring the Rhino's that might be sitting back into the game. If a floorboard is preventing that from happening than a change is pretty easy to add.


The Production class rules don't seem that far away from working to me but Doom and Gloom drives up Joeys impression count so at least something good comes of it. Look for ad rates to soar.:D



So I have to ask, Do you guys want to see manufactures drive money into your sport, or do you just want to keep racing in shorts and tennis shoes? The UTV market is the leads the industry across the board in sales. In a market that has seen shrinking sales, UTV's continue to outpace every other type of OHV. But look around you. LOORS has a very small turn out, BITD is ok but not a reflection of the total sales of the market. WORCS is on fire no doubt, but They don't have any UTV based vendors or sponsors injecting money into it. The sponsors want a level of protection before they will invest.

Manufactures want a classes of racing that resemble what they sell. History tells us a lot of things if we look at it. A hand full of people who helped develop this rule package know what it takes to get a Motor sport to the next level. From my experience I can tell you long term growth of a series does not happen on entry fees alone. You need sponsors.

Three of the people on that list participated in Mickey Thompson stadium racing, and have been invested in the sport all along the way. They have been involved in everything from SCORE to racing the Nascar truck series.

We even have a guy who heads up Kawasaki's motor sports program on this committee.

Each promoter will make his own choices, and each racer will make his own choices. When you say the ISA missed the mark and the rules are not going to work it blows my mind, because all I see are a few small issues and we fully expected to see that happen.

As far as the detail in the safety aspect. Insurance is getting harder and harder, permits the same. This rule package was developed to help with those issues. You will see a lot of legality issues changing motor sports over the next few years, as we are still not completely out from under the dark cloud of the Ca 200.

[BiggJim]

"right now the isa is not looking good.some of the board members that have commented in this thread have mentioned if you dont like it then dont join it"
You know what is funny about this statement is Bill france said the the same thing to nascar drivers. So they started a drivers union he told them to pound sand. Everybody told him he was wrong, boy if look at nascar association now who was wrong. that was in the 70's look at it now. Not saying the ISA will get that big but everything takes time. On the whole SR1 thing it is only relevent in lucas oil. Last time i checked not one has showed up to race BITD race. You cant count the guy that one bilek 2 years in row because it was not a SR1 to weller rules/lucas.

If Im not mistaken there was 2 R1 powered machines at Blue Water GP this year..... I could care less about rock racing...I think its cool but its ONE event per year???? On another Note...I keep seeing people throw out NASCAR as a comparison but that isnt a good reference. NASCAR rules are not used in automotive drag racing, sprint racing or Indy Racing....ALL of which are automotive racing. So how can One organization group UTV Rock racing, Short course racing, and desert racing all together and give them the same set of founding rules? You cant.

With that being said the only thing in common between these automotive style races and UTV style races is the safety gear required. And I think EVERYONE (for the most part) Can agree that 5 point restraints, helmets, firesuits and fire protection, properly built roll cages and restraint systems to keep hands, arms, legs and feet in the machine in a rollover is necessary within ISA's rulebook. Classes, floorboards, reverses, and long travels, in MY opinion are not up to “ONE GROUP” and should be up to event organizers.

[SXS Machine]

I am gonna cut to the chase. There has been a lot of talk in this thread about getting manufactures involved. Bringing in more money, and increasing car counts. While I am honored that some may think I sat down and whittled out a 71 page document on the sport of UTV racing by myself, lets be serious, I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of each machine to do that. Outside of three people every one of the folks that laid a hand on this document has had experience with UTVRA and wanted to see some changes; I have never met Cory S., I don’t know him or have an opinion.

Here is the list of people that developed this rulebook. They are the founding members of ISA.
Jeff Knoll KOH Co Founder
Mike Lasher Monster Energy Kawasaki, UTVRA Co Founder
Reid Nordin Kawasaki Team Green
Time Orchard OMF wheels UTVRA co founder
Grant George Funco
Randy Anderson Walker Evans Racing
Brian Bennett Long travel Industries
Dean Bulloch Arctic Cat dealer Cedar City, Utah (long time racer)
Brit Mansell Octane Media & Polaris racer from the southeast.
Bill Schueler Jagged X
Scott Mears XMF
Rob Muzzy Muzzy’s Performance
Joey D UTV Underground

So when I see statements like we want more manufacture involvement not more rules, I’m not really sure what to say. This list should give some insight into what some of the manufactures are interested in seeing in order to get behind the sport of racing.



With absolutely all due deference to the people on the committee who are a who;'s who of OEM aftermarket manufacturers and enhancers.

I'm sure the manufacturers being refferred to are the factory manufacturers in both US and Japanese manufacturers, not the aftermarket manufacturers.

Whom I will say again have my full appreciation for the seniority they generate out of the businesses they have built in support of making ATV performance in recreational and racing machines what it is today.

One thing that is absolutely clear from Polaris here and it goes straight back to HQ is that Polaris want people to be able to race a machine as close to production spec as possible to make it cheap as possible to get into.

So there should be production categories. But we know people, and it has happened all over the world that people want their machines performance to be improved to their liking and so sub-modified to unlimited machines may have a place in certain events. and thats where the aftermarket OEM and improvement manufacturers come in. And so the aftermarket manufacturers are represented but how are the production classes represented?

Thanks

Gavin :)

[Darryl89]

Unlimited 4 Turbo's, unlimited in its nature is an issue.

Unlimited 2 Reverse. (Corry you made a very good case, I am pretty sure it was over looked.)




The Production class rules don't seem that far away from working to me but Doom and Gloom drives up Joeys impression count so at least something good comes of it. Look for ad rates to soar.:D



So I have to ask, Do you guys want to see manufactures drive money into your sport, or do you just want to keep racing in shorts and tennis shoes? The UTV market is the leads the industry across the board in sales. In a market that has seen shrinking sales, UTV's continue to outpace every other type of OHV. But look around you. LOORS has a very small turn out, BITD is ok but not a reflection of the total sales of the market. WORCS is on fire no doubt, but They don't have any UTV based vendors or sponsors injecting money into it. The sponsors want a level of protection before they will invest.

Manufactures want a classes of racing that resemble what they sell. History tells us a lot of things if we look at it. A hand full of people who helped develop this rule package know what it takes to get a Motor sport to the next level. From my experience I can tell you long term growth of a series does not happen on entry fees alone. You need sponsors.

Three of the people on that list participated in Mickey Thompson stadium racing, and have been invested in the sport all along the way. They have been involved in everything from SCORE to racing the Nascar truck series.

As far as the detail in the safety aspect. Insurance is getting harder and harder, permits the same. This rule package was developed to help with those issues. You will see a lot of legality issues changing motor sports over the next few years, as we are still not completely out from under the dark cloud of the Ca 200.


Jeff,
as I mentioned, my issues are with 2 main things.

One is having the Production classes have to use off-the-shelf LT kits and using stock shock mounts or off- the shelf shock towers. I can see the reason for doing that is to keep from having one-off, specialized suspensions built. But that forces racers to have to spend thousands of dollars for a LT kit. When many of them can build their own at much less.

The other issue I worry about it with the Production Class rules being so tight, that will force many into the Unlimited Class. When in reality, that will be putting cars like Jagged X's, mine and many others up against potential $100,000 cars with turbo and super big bore motors. I'm just not sure how that will pan out. I know it is an "Unlimited Class", but it allows deep pocketed outfits to outclass us garage built guys. My car would qualify for Production Class if it wasn't for the LT Kit and shock mount rule, hey, I even have the OEM floorboard.

Perhaps there should've been a Stock, a Production Modified and an Ulimited set of classes. Allow the BITD type cars in the Production Modified class since they are required to retain stock frame rails, stock suspension mounting points and stock engine cases in the stock location as well as stock rear differentials...It makes sense that these BITD type cars can run many other series, but can't compete against a true "Unlimited" car that might have super big bore and/or turbo'd engines with one-off suspensions.

By the way, you'll have my membership app shortly in the mail...

[JoeyD23]

the isa needs to down size its rule book.bitd,loors,worcs,podium produtions, and gncc never had this many pages.

BITD = 1 CLASS
LOORRS = 1 CLASS for Production UTV & 1 SR1 Class
WORCS = 3 Classes with NO safety structure...Yet
Podium Productions = NO RULEBOOK?
GNCC = 3 Classes (I think?)

Point is, NO ONE HAS EVER MADE A DETAILED RULE BOOK OFFERING THIS MANY CLASSES FOR THIS MAY DIFFERENT TYPES OF UTV"S WHILE TRYING TO KEEP EVERYONE IN FAIR COMPETITION AND RACING SAFE! Get over the 71 pages and read the book.

you need to keep it simple and basic and i know there are people who will always be in argument but if the majority is in agreement then it will work.

How many people here are in argument? REALLY? How many here, 6 or 7? I am sure more will argue it but I know there are a ton that support it that we won't either hear from here on the web. The Rules are simple, and if you read them you will see that. Look, we are already discussing the fact that your Rhino, that you run in class 3 would be accepted still, in the Production 700. We just need to make the floorboard adjustment. If we make that adjustment, thus allowing YOUR personal Rhino's to compete in the same class you want to race in then whats the beef? If you want to build and XP900 and dont want to cage it then I can't help there. Thats just plain dangerous. Fun, but scary!


right now the isa is not looking good.some of the board members that have commented in this thread have mentioned if you dont like it then dont join it.

Thats the case for everything in life. If you don't like McDonalds food then don't go buy it. If you don't like the rain, then stay inside. If you don't like the ISA then don't join it. It's not meant to be a "line in the sand" comment, what I am trying to get across is essentially how this country was founded. If you are not part of the solution then you are a part of the problem. Again, if you think UTV racing is perfect you are wrong. We need to get the ball rolling in the right direction to strengthen and preserve our sport. ISA can do that, but only if you and everyone else who loves it as much as us helps us shape it! We need your voice, and need your help. I know you have $25.00! Get with us and help!!!! You are invested into racing UTV's, we are invested in this sport to support you!



well what are you going to do when nobody joins?the isa is nothing or no good without any members.it will never reach a "international level" with a board like that.

We already had at least 1 person join...LOL... I know, we need more than one! haha We know we need members, no doubt. We also need people here who are focused on one floorboard rule to look at the big picture.

i think it needs to go back to the drawing board.

WHAT? lol Because of less than 20 people on our site are concerned with a FEW rules in a MASSIVE BIG HUGE 71 page rule book for 6 classes, 3 of which no other series has???? Give me 5 reasons, legit reasons!? Remember this is here for more than racing. If rules make you think this org is failing then I don't know anyone can convince you of the other issues in this industry the ISA is going to try and help.

Worcs and gncc are the most sucessful sxs race series in this country and there is a reason behind it.they should both be left alone and i think the isa needs to stay out of the racing circuit for now until they get this rulebook figured out and use thier energy towards keeping some of the off highway parks open,getting new riding spots opened up,oranizing runs or riding events, things of that nature.

READ THE RULES!!!! They are based around GNCC and WORCS! Trust me, when the ISA first met the first thing we asked was what is LOORRS, BITD, GNCC, and WORCS all doing that work's and what are they doing that hurts??Production 700 is the same class you are racing in now just with a different name from Class 3, once we change the floorboard rule you have nothing to worry about? Once we correct the rule about one off suspension then you have nothing to worry about? The Rules will be refined, this is why we need you to look at it. The reason GNCC does well is because it is built around STOCK performing cars, not full built cars!!! You couldn't race your car at GNCC because of width and trails BTW. The reason WORCS does well is because of its breakdown of classes by CC WHICH IS EXACATLY WHAT THE ISA HAS DONE! All the ISA did was add a Production Beginner class, which no one is complaining about, an UNLIMITED 4 wheel class and an UNLIMITED 2 wheel class. These classes were designed for people who want to go crazy with their UTV builds and race them? Why is that so bad? NOT EVERY SERIES HAS TO ADOPT ALL 6 UTV CLASSES! SERIES' LIKE WORCS CAN SELECT THE CLASSES THAT BEST FIT THEIR SERIES. IMO I would like to see WORCS have Beginner - Production 700, 850, 1000 - Unlimited 4


there are many utvs out there in the usa but maybe a total of one percent are actual racers.

We know that, but that 1% is still very important to us, and its that 1% that got us going with this association, and its that 1% we want to see turn into 10%!!!!

Scott, like everyone here, you are my friend on and off this website. I am not trying to belittle, degrade, or disrespect you. I want to be open and think I can be strait with you in explaining our cause. So, if you are concerned, do as Rusty and Jeff have asked and instead of making blanket statements post up WHAT in the book affects YOU, YOUR CAR, and YOUR SERIES with facts and points. That will be the ONLY way we can help you out here.

[the stripping shop]

If Im not mistaken there was 2 R1 powered machines at Blue Water GP this year..... I could care less about rock racing...I think its cool but its ONE event per year???? On another Note...I keep seeing people throw out NASCAR as a comparison but that isnt a good reference. NASCAR rules are not used in automotive drag racing, sprint racing or Indy Racing....ALL of which are automotive racing. So how can One organization group UTV Rock racing, Short course racing, and desert racing all together and give them the same set of founding rules? You cant.

With that being said the only thing in common between these automotive style races and UTV style races is the safety gear required. And I think EVERYONE (for the most part) Can agree that 5 point restraints, helmets, firesuits and fire protection, properly built roll cages and restraint systems to keep hands, arms, legs and feet in the machine in a rollover is necessary within ISA's rulebook. Classes, floorboards, reverses, and long travels, in MY opinion are not up to “ONE GROUP” and should be up to event organizers.
Not 100% sure but were they DSR1 or were they SR1 to weller rules/lucas because DSR1 are pretty much run what you brung rules no frame any motor. SR1 is totally different. My comparison is to bill France. when he built talladega the drivers said were not going to show if you dont change. Bill france said i will show you and put the race on anyways.this was in the 70'S. Look were Talladega is now on the international level. Sometimes one opinion is not the vision of another. If you dont want to compare motorsports look at UFC fighting were they started and were they are now. Can polaris/kawasaki/john deere/ honda/arcticcat, do the same with direction yes, but they need guid lines.

[JoeyD23]

Can polaris/kawasaki/john deere/ honda/arcticcat, do the same with direction yes, but they need guid lines.

The ISA rules will only encourage the Manufacturers to being even more involved then they already are. Safety and professionalism is KEY!

Manufacturer supported TEAMS by series that I can think of:

Kawasaki - 2 @ LOORRS, 1 @ BITD

Polaris - 1 @ LOORRS, 1 @ BITD, 2? @ WORCS, 2? @ GNCC

Arctic Cat - NONE

Can-AM/BRP - 1 @ WORCS, 2? @ GNCC (BITD Sappington according to BRP is not factory)

Yamaha - NONE

Honda - NONE

John Deere - 2 @ BITD


That is not much support but I am sure I missed a couple and may have forgot about a few other series such as Mud Racing, etc.... That could drastically increase with some improvement in car count and infrastructure.

[JoeyD23]

Jeff,
as I mentioned, my issues are with 2 main things.

One is having the Production classes have to use off-the-shelf LT kits and using stock shock mounts or off- the shelf shock towers. I can see the reason for doing that is to keep from having one-off, specialized suspensions built. But that forces racers to have to spend thousands of dollars for a LT kit. When many of them can build their own at much less.

The LT Kit thing can be corrected. And even if it wasn't if you had someone build the kit all they would have to say is that they can build another one for sale...BOOM!

The other issue I worry about it with the Production Class rules being so tight, that will force many into the Unlimited Class. When in reality, that will be putting cars like Jagged X's, mine and many others up against potential $100,000 cars with turbo and super big bore motors. I'm just not sure how that will pan out. I know it is an "Unlimited Class", but it allows deep pocketed outfits to outclass us garage built guys. My car would qualify for Production Class if it wasn't for the LT Kit and shock mount rule, hey, I even have the OEM floorboard.


The goal of Unlimited 4 is to give guys who want to build CRAZY $100,000 UTV's like we see at LOORRS a place to do so. You are worrying about hypothetical builds that have never even been drawn up. Jagged X's own Bill Schueler already told us he would have NO problem competing in Unlimited 4 and really, neither should you. By the time someone develops nitro methane, twin turbo, ZX14, powered by a flux capacitor you would have already bought a Wild Cat to race in Production 1000. If guys want to build super gnar gnar DGAF 1 Billion dollar UTV's then they need a place to do that. But until they do, don't sweat it. In most cases the course will be the equalizer. Perfect example, Soboba. Big dog LOORRS race cars with major motor packages and factory support got beat by showroom floor RZR4. Reason - Course! BITD, SCORE, KOH, ETC ETC ETC have the same course equalizer!

Perhaps there should've been a Stock, a Production Modified and an Ulimited set of classes. Allow the BITD type cars in the Production Modified class since they are required to retain stock frame rails, stock suspension mounting points and stock engine cases in the stock location as well as stock rear differentials...It makes sense that these BITD type cars can run many other series, but can't compete against a true "Unlimited" car that might have super big bore and/or turbo'd engines with one-off suspensions.

Essentially that is what has been created. A beginner class that is production based, then 3 production classes separated by CC, then 2 fully unlimited, run what ya brung classes for the wild and crazy guys!

By the way, you'll have my membership app shortly in the mail...

Ata boy Darryl! We need more people just like you who want to affect change and be a part of it for the good of our sport! We need EVERYONE!!!!



Keep the suggestions and ideas coming! Lets keep it respectful! UTVUnderground ROCKS!

[Darryl89]

I want to say, I just had a conversation with Jeff and am quite happy with the ISA's direction. I have felt since day one, that an organization like the ISA was needed to help the SXS sport grow.

Jeff, thank you for taking time to listen to me, to discuss it with me and for understanding my concerns. I appreciate how you and others within the ISA have addressed my concerns and thoughts.

I feel much more comfortable with where my car falls in the rules and that they will in face be reasonable and liveable.

Joey, thank you for addressing my concerns too, you and Rusty both are a great help and with guys like you around, the organization should progress just fine.


Now, I have to address one thing that has really been bothering me more and more...

GAVIN, GET OVER IT, THE ISA IS INTERNATIONAL PERIOD!!! If they so much as assist with one race or one issue outside of the United States, that by legal definition, makes them International. They have been having discussions to assist issues and races in Europe, Mexico and Canada. Even though the board may not be made up of international members yet, and I stress yet, it was necessary to form the board, even as a interim board until there are enough members of the ISA to hold a proper election. If you have concerns about it being "INTERNATIONAL", then join and run for a board position at the end of the interim term. I do remember the ISA putting out a request for others to become board members, where was your application?

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

If you want happy and more racers dont increase the costs of racing.
1.
One of the concerns I have is MONEY$, I know if I dont have it I shouldnt be racing then. Guess what I love it so much in the last 4 years I have been unemployed for 3 of the 4 years and still manage to fiqure out a way to get on the track and support UTVRACING, $30,000.00 later.

2.If you want members then you guys need to get all the manufactures that you have currently and show something as far as product and $ for contigency prizes.
If each company puts in $2000.00 we could have a $10,000.00 NATIONAL PRIZE and would want me to sign up!
I dont race for money thats for sure.

Why should we be ISA members??

I'm here to help build UTV racing.

[Darryl89]

Why should we be ISA members??

I'm here to help build UTV racing.

One word--- UNITY!!
Unity of voice on issues affecting SXS/UTV recreation, racing, safety, sponsorships, land access, regulation of manufacturers, etc...

The AMA- American Motorcyclist Association built unity for motorcyclist throughout the US and beyond. They have a strong voice that surfaced recently in the youth motorcycle and atv battery issue. Their lobbying and strong voice kept youth being able to ride. And that's just one small thing they do.
This is what the ISA will eventually do for us.

The AMA also developed a set of amatuer racing rules and a point system where points could travel with the rider from track to track in a region and eventually be used to race bigger races, giving them exposure to national sponsors.
This is what the ISA will eventually do for us.

The AMA holds regular discussions with government safety officials to ensure that regulations on bikes don't become too overbearing, keeping the sport affordable and fun.
This is what the ISA will eventually do for us.

There are many other things they will do. Developing rules is probably one of the smaller tasks, but right now the hottest among many. But their fight for land access and for our sport is very important...

I recommend everyone join, participate and help build an organization that will help our sport...

[Bajaxp]

Man...I am so full of popcorn, that I need to type a little of it off! Haha.

I see the ISA rules as potentially helping the loosey, goosey grass roots racing that has been growing so nicely. These events need structure and definaltely need some safety guidelines. Eg...the AVE races in Cal City, LEGP, WORCS, reservation racing...etc. I am not putting these events down in ANY way, but the rules and safety requirements are loose.

Jeff my $.02 is that there only needs to be three classes for ISA. And these rules really apply to shorter races that run on extended MX style courses. Copy WORC's classes but add safety requirements...fire suits, safe doors, window nets, bolt on cage with roof, 5 pt restraints and neck roll. For the most part you have done this, but just keep it simple and it will keep the car counts up in each class.

I don't see the ISA rules being adopted by big event desert racing where desert UTV's are on course with Trophy Trucks and Class 1's. The current long course desert rules are working, create safety and despite the cost to build a BITD legal desert UTV...car counts are growing in 2011 verus prior years. Parker 250 = 18 UTV's, Silver State 300 = 17 UTV's, BWGP = 18 UTV's, Vegas to Reno = 15 UTV's.

As for big time manufacture involvement I really don't see it for a while (if ever) unless an OEM(s) builds a 'racing' UTV. A motocross bike is built for racing, but current UTV's are built for recreation and utility and racing is only a niche use and represents less than 1% of usage. Don't get me wrong, I would love to get a big contingency check, as I am TRUELY a privateer (Joey that is for you) but again racing isn't driving sales at any of the manufacturers...yet!

Fire away!:)

[JoeyD23]

If you want happy and more racers dont increase the costs of racing.
1. One of the concerns I have is MONEY$, I know if I dont have it I shouldnt be racing then. Guess what I love it so much in the last 4 years I have been unemployed for 3 of the 4 years and still manage to fiqure out a way to get on the track and support UTVRACING, $30,000.00 later.

Dan, The ISA does not dictate racer entry fees. ISA will require a small fee to join as an ISA race member which is a 1 time fee I think? Maybe once a season? But its cheap. It will then force you to buy the proper safety equipment such as fire-suit, helmet, gloves, etc etc. Other than that ISA has no direct influence on cost other than in time the cost to build competitive cars will greatly reduce do to the evenness of the classes.

2.If you want members then you guys need to get all the manufactures that you have currently and show something as far as product and $ for contigency prizes. If each company puts in $2000.00 we could have a $10,000.00 NATIONAL PRIZE and would want me to sign up!
I dont race for money thats for sure.

This is something we are working on. There are already a handfull of companies who are going to be putting up ISA specific contingencies for racers!!! The manufacturer thing, well thats a bit tougher. Fact is you race a Yamaha o I wouldn't expect anything from them for your sake and I if Polaris, Kawi, BRP, or AC put up funds it would be to reward those who race in their vehicles which still keeps you out of the loop on that unfortunately. But there will be other benefits from other aftermarket contributors, I promise you that!

Why should we be ISA members??

Why shouldn't you?? The ISA is here for this sport that you and I both love. It's here to help build the future by making competiton cheaper, safer, and more fair. The ISA will be here to to stand as one voice for our hobby and sport and will one day be helping fight land use issues, trail issues, and hopefully influence the way UTV's are built from the factory in a positive and fun way! Another reason, ITS $25.00!!!!!!

I'm here to help build UTV racing.

See above in red...

[JoeyD23]

Had a great discusion with Trevor at 747Ink and he will be getting on board with ISA. His concerns are the Floor Board Rule and the LT Kit Rule. But after breaking the rules down he even sees that what we have in terms of Production 700, 850, 1000 that we are really close to Class 1, 2, & 3. ISA injected in the safety stuff the rules needed!

[Bajaxp]

Sounds like the ISA know that the rules will need to be fluid and therefore a work in progress.

[Jeff Knoll]

Sounds like the ISA know that the rules will need to be fluid and therefore a work in progress.

Winner winner chicken dinner, goes with Popcorn pretty well I hear?:D

[Rusty5150]

I just want to piont out one thing. There is alot of talk about racing against top fuel dragster motors in UTV's. We really only have one race to compare anything to and thats the Soboba GP. Below is a list of everyone that entered and what class they would fall into under the ISA Rule Book. I think its interesting to see that once you put the machine in action the driver, elements and the play start to play a factor.


1 Beau Baron 12 HON 1 Production 850
2 Mitch Guthrie 55 OTH 2 Production 850
3 Brent Fouch 699 KAW 3 Ultra 4
4 Garret George 71 KAW 4 Production 850
5 Taylor George 642 KAW 5 Ultra 4
6 Randy Anderson 637 POL 6 Production 850
7 Greg Frantz 877 OTH 7 Ultra 2
8 Todd Jespersey 614 YAM 8 Production 700
9 Hans Weage 23 KAW 9 Ultra 4
10 Daniel Akin 31 YAM 10 Production 700
11 Jimmy Nagel 816 KAW 11 Production 850
12 David Norris X KAW 12 Production 850
13 James Hill 91 YAM 13 Production 700
14 Daniel Fernandez 45 YAM 14 Production 700
15 Mariah Brittian 87 POL 15 Production 850
16 Brent Fitzpatrick 126 OTH 16 ??????
17 Mark Turner 600 YAM 17 Ultra 4
18 Vince Scheraldy 85 YAM 18 Production 700
19 Brandon Cunningham 99 KAW 19 Production 850
20 Kyle Kennedy 444 YAM 20 Production 700
21 Tyler Winbury 694 KAW DNF Ultra 4
22 Doug Mittag 18 CAN DNF Production 1000
23 Garrett Winbury 247 POL DNF Production 850
24 Brandon Blyth 103 OTH DNF ???????
25 Jason Dudley 4 YAM DNF Production 700
26 Jack Kashersky 1 YAM DNF Production 700
27 Tommy Scranton 111 YAM DNF Production 700
28 Louu Zavas 2 YAM DNF Production 700
29 Derrek Cervantes 1918 YAM DNF Production 700
30 Robert Vanbeekun 664 KAW DNF Ultra 4
31 Blue Quisquis 669 KAW DNF Ultra Weird??
32 Noah Fouch 152 KAW DNF Production 850
33 John Goodman 615 OTH DNF ??????
34 Matt Taylor 90 YAM DNF Production 850
35 Fred Brayton 66 POL DNF Production 850
36 Rj Anderson 37 POL DNF Production 1000
37 Justin Sheakley 1939 YAM DNF Ultra 4
38 Paul Nagel 19 OTH DNF ??????
39 Landon List 714 YAM DNF Production 700
40 Alex Danze? OO OTH DNS ??????
41 Shad Kennedy 14 OTH DNS ??????

[Mike L]

Just a point of clarification... the ISA classes are Unlimited 4 and Unlimited 2.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

Rusty loves rock crawling! He just has the KOH hammer town FEVER!

[Bajaxp]

Rusty...trust me Beau did not race a Big Red at Soboba? Right?

[Bajaxp]

Sounds like the ISA know that the rules will need to be fluid and therefore a work in progress.

Do you agree with my popcorn assessment to some degree?

[Crowdog]

Good discussion going on. Some standardization is definitely needed and this will only help make the end result better.

Thanks to everyone that has spent countless hours on this process.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

Beau smoked everybody in a family car and this proves everything and bring what you got let's see it and prove what you can put in a UTV! This is why I dig Soboba GP.

[tatum]

I just want to piont out one thing. There is alot of talk about racing against top fuel dragster motors in UTV's. We really only have one race to compare anything to and thats the Soboba GP. Below is a list of everyone that entered and what class they would fall into under the ISA Rule Book. I think its interesting to see that once you put the machine in action the driver, elements and the play start to play a factor.


1 Beau Baron 12 HON 1 Production 850
2 Mitch Guthrie 55 OTH 2 Production 850
3 Brent Fouch 699 KAW 3 Ultra 4
4 Garret George 71 KAW 4 Production 850
5 Taylor George 642 KAW 5 Ultra 4
6 Randy Anderson 637 POL 6 Production 850
7 Greg Frantz 877 OTH 7 Ultra 2
8 Todd Jespersey 614 YAM 8 Production 700
9 Hans Weage 23 KAW 9 Ultra 4
10 Daniel Akin 31 YAM 10 Production 700
11 Jimmy Nagel 816 KAW 11 Production 850
12 David Norris X KAW 12 Production 850
13 James Hill 91 YAM 13 Production 700
14 Daniel Fernandez 45 YAM 14 Production 700
15 Mariah Brittian 87 POL 15 Production 850
16 Brent Fitzpatrick 126 OTH 16 ??????
17 Mark Turner 600 YAM 17 Ultra 4
18 Vince Scheraldy 85 YAM 18 Production 700
19 Brandon Cunningham 99 KAW 19 Production 850
20 Kyle Kennedy 444 YAM 20 Production 700
21 Tyler Winbury 694 KAW DNF Ultra 4
22 Doug Mittag 18 CAN DNF Production 1000
23 Garrett Winbury 247 POL DNF Production 850
24 Brandon Blyth 103 OTH DNF ???????
25 Jason Dudley 4 YAM DNF Production 700
26 Jack Kashersky 1 YAM DNF Production 700
27 Tommy Scranton 111 YAM DNF Production 700
28 Louu Zavas 2 YAM DNF Production 700
29 Derrek Cervantes 1918 YAM DNF Production 700
30 Robert Vanbeekun 664 KAW DNF Ultra 4
31 Blue Quisquis 669 KAW DNF Ultra Weird??
32 Noah Fouch 152 KAW DNF Production 850
33 John Goodman 615 OTH DNF ??????
34 Matt Taylor 90 YAM DNF Production 850
35 Fred Brayton 66 POL DNF Production 850
36 Rj Anderson 37 POL DNF Production 1000
37 Justin Sheakley 1939 YAM DNF Ultra 4
38 Paul Nagel 19 OTH DNF ??????
39 Landon List 714 YAM DNF Production 700
40 Alex Danze? OO OTH DNS ??????
41 Shad Kennedy 14 OTH DNS ??????

Just a point of clarification,my last name is spelled Waage.JK
This is a perfect example Rusty(even though its partly at my expense)of how racing goes and you never know whats gonna happen.

[Rusty5150]

I only added the info in red. This info was pulled from the Soboba thread last year. It's cool to see how many classes there are competing. The top 10 has every class but Production 1000. 2 Production 700 class UTV's made into the top 10 and 4 Production 850's.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

This is why we need rules and regulate UTV RACING all together.
World's Worst RZR Crash - JUMP GONE WRONG! - YouTube.

Look what happens when you dont require ROOFS and HARNESS.

[SXS Machine]

GAVIN, GET OVER IT, THE ISA IS INTERNATIONAL PERIOD!!! If they so much as assist with one race or one issue outside of the United States, that by legal definition, makes them International. They have been having discussions to assist issues and races in Europe, Mexico and Canada. Even though the board may not be made up of international members yet, and I stress yet, it was necessary to form the board, even as a interim board until there are enough members of the ISA to hold a proper election. If you have concerns about it being "INTERNATIONAL", then join and run for a board position at the end of the interim term. I do remember the ISA putting out a request for others to become board members, where was your application?

Daryl if you're having a period there's no need to shout it to the world, its just nature taking its course.

Now somebody made a point of keeping statements non-blanket so perhaps you should keep that in mind my feedback has been specific and measurable. As it has been to Jeff and to others from the board who have cared to make any conversation on the matter.

Making such a statement does absolutely nothing top generate positive feeling about the committee or its intentions.

And that just what they are now, intentions, those intentions are not written down anywhere as far as I can see and so I find myself in a position to make that observation.

According to Jeff the discussions they have had have resulted in handshakes and good on them for that but other than that lets not blow a handshake out of proportions. Did it help them get cheaper SXS's into the country to start racing? Did it result in a partnership of anyone sending race ready machines to those countries because they haven't got anyone with the experience or tooling set-up to have cars meet the requirements? There are no statements of any measurable intent.

Nobody on the board has even got the responsibility for looking at helping internationals start racing or to enhance their ability to race.

If you do remember the board putting out a post on inviting others to become board members sorry but I missed it, perhaps it was before I was invited to join the underground?

Other than that has your statement got any relevance to International racing other than a blanket rant?

Other than that its been pointed out to me that there is quite a few international members on the site, why then is there one international member if things are so green for internationals?

Other than that your paragraph has nothing to do with the rule book so I'm not going to post on it further as this thread IS about the rule book. The committee post is elsewhere take it there. I have already made my issues clear to the committee via the communications liaison.

[Hounslow]

GAVIN, GET OVER IT, THE ISA IS INTERNATIONAL PERIOD!!! If they so much as assist with one race or one issue outside of the United States, that by legal definition, makes them International. They have been having discussions to assist issues and races in Europe, Mexico and Canada. Even though the board may not be made up of international members yet, and I stress yet, it was necessary to form the board, even as a interim board until there are enough members of the ISA to hold a proper election. If you have concerns about it being "INTERNATIONAL", then join and run for a board position at the end of the interim term. I do remember the ISA putting out a request for others to become board members, where was your application?

Daryl if you're having a period there's no need to shout it to the world, its just nature taking its course.

Now somebody made a point of keeping statements non-blanket so perhaps you should keep that in mind my feedback has been specific and measurable. As it has been to Jeff and to others from the board who have cared to make any conversation on the matter.

Making such a statement does absolutely nothing top generate positive feeling about the committee or its intentions.

And that just what they are now, intentions, those intentions are not written down anywhere as far as I can see and so I find myself in a position to make that observation.

According to Jeff the discussions they have had have resulted in handshakes and good on them for that but other than that lets not blow a handshake out of proportions. Did it help them get cheaper SXS's into the country to start racing? Did it result in a partnership of anyone sending race ready machines to those countries because they haven't got anyone with the experience or tooling set-up to have cars meet the requirements? There are no statements of any measurable intent.

Nobody on the board has even got the responsibility for looking at helping internationals start racing or to enhance their ability to race.

If you do remember the board putting out a post on inviting others to become board members sorry but I missed it, perhaps it was before I was invited to join the underground?

Other than that has your statement got any relevance to International racing other than a blanket rant?

Other than that its been pointed out to me that there is quite a few international members on the site, why then is there one international member if things are so green for internationals?

Other than that your paragraph has nothing to do with the rule book so I'm not going to post on it further as this thread IS about the rule book. The committee post is elsewhere take it there. I have already made my issues clear to the committee via the communications liaison.
I know both grant ( funco) and Brian ( long travel industries) sell a lot of product internationally. They are also offering discounts to Isa members. And were on the counsel to start the org. That seems international to me. Just imo

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[JoeyD23]

Hey everyone, just FYI Reid Nordin, Myself, and now even Mike Lasher will be at the next WORCS race at Racetown to answer any questions in person in regards to the ISA rule book. We hope you all will come with an open mind. Be prepared with any and all questions that effect you.

[rupert14]

I have purposly waited to post on this thread. I do have a complete drivetrain setup in my garage that will allow a 1300cc shaft drive to 4wd with reverse. It will fit in a 4 seat UTV with 220 HP from a bone stock motor. I am building a DSR1 car of 100 inch wheelbase right now and I had to go with an R1 motor because I want to be able to race with the other DSR1 cars. If I could race a car with this drivetrain somewhere, I would build it. I already have 12K into the drivetrain and all I need to do is put it in. Without the dry sump, alternator, lock up clutch etc you could duplicate this for about 6K. I have more than that in my race Teryx 840 motor. Having a sanctioning body that allows this stuff is good, and for those that think 200hp 4wd cars are not coming you are wrong. I almost installed this drivetrain in my car in anticipation of the upcoming changes but decided to stay within the DSR1 rules so I could race with others.

Making rules that standardize things is good to me. Keeping the SR1 and DSR1 classes is essential if the ISA wants to expand. Keep some classes affordable. Separate the cars that are 50-60K cars (like my teryx) out of the stock classes so everyone can race. I believe this will increase our numbers and the racing turnout.

Too bad no one made a 700cc or less class so all the hundreds of race rhinos collecting cobwebs could come out and race again. The cheapest way to get into racing is to find a class that allows single cylinders, or 700cc or less, and buy a built race rhino for 10K and go for it. If anyone figures this out, I think there will be a line out the door to sign up for the class.

[Darryl89]

I have purposly waited to post on this thread. I do have a complete drivetrain setup in my garage that will allow a 1300cc shaft drive to 4wd with reverse. It will fit in a 4 seat UTV with 220 HP from a bone stock motor. I am building a DSR1 car of 100 inch wheelbase right now and I had to go with an R1 motor because I want to be able to race with the other DSR1 cars. If I could race a car with this drivetrain somewhere, I would build it. I already have 12K into the drivetrain and all I need to do is put it in. Without the dry sump, alternator, lock up clutch etc you could duplicate this for about 6K. I have more than that in my race Teryx 840 motor. Having a sanctioning body that allows this stuff is good, and for those that think 200hp 4wd cars are not coming you are wrong. I almost installed this drivetrain in my car in anticipation of the upcoming changes but decided to stay within the DSR1 rules so I could race with others.

Making rules that standardize things is good to me. Keeping the SR1 and DSR1 classes is essential if the ISA wants to expand. Keep some classes affordable. Separate the cars that are 50-60K cars (like my teryx) out of the stock classes so everyone can race. I believe this will increase our numbers and the racing turnout.

Too bad no one made a 700cc or less class so all the hundreds of race rhinos collecting cobwebs could come out and race again. The cheapest way to get into racing is to find a class that allows single cylinders, or 700cc or less, and buy a built race rhino for 10K and go for it. If anyone figures this out, I think there will be a line out the door to sign up for the class.


Let the madness begin... as much as I don't like to see a meg-buck motor war start, I would like to see that motor in a UTV kick some serious butt in a run against ecotec motored desert cars..

[Mike L]

Too bad no one made a 700cc or less class so all the hundreds of race rhinos collecting cobwebs could come out and race again. The cheapest way to get into racing is to find a class that allows single cylinders, or 700cc or less, and buy a built race rhino for 10K and go for it. If anyone figures this out, I think there will be a line out the door to sign up for the class.

Did you see the Production 700 class? This is exactly what it was created for!

[Seaver]

Rupert, I wanted to comment on your last paragraph, there is a place to race that Rhino, WORCS! Class 3 Rhino guys have been having fun there for years. This is simple and fun racing. Just excactly why I hope they keep it that way.

[JoeyD23]

I have purposly waited to post on this thread. I do have a complete drivetrain setup in my garage that will allow a 1300cc shaft drive to 4wd with reverse. It will fit in a 4 seat UTV with 220 HP from a bone stock motor. I am building a DSR1 car of 100 inch wheelbase right now and I had to go with an R1 motor because I want to be able to race with the other DSR1 cars. If I could race a car with this drivetrain somewhere, I would build it. I already have 12K into the drivetrain and all I need to do is put it in. Without the dry sump, alternator, lock up clutch etc you could duplicate this for about 6K. I have more than that in my race Teryx 840 motor. Having a sanctioning body that allows this stuff is good, and for those that think 200hp 4wd cars are not coming you are wrong. I almost installed this drivetrain in my car in anticipation of the upcoming changes but decided to stay within the DSR1 rules so I could race with others.

Making rules that standardize things is good to me. Keeping the SR1 and DSR1 classes is essential if the ISA wants to expand. Keep some classes affordable. Separate the cars that are 50-60K cars (like my teryx) out of the stock classes so everyone can race. I believe this will increase our numbers and the racing turnout.

Too bad no one made a 700cc or less class so all the hundreds of race rhinos collecting cobwebs could come out and race again. The cheapest way to get into racing is to find a class that allows single cylinders, or 700cc or less, and buy a built race rhino for 10K and go for it. If anyone figures this out, I think there will be a line out the door to sign up for the class.

Unlimited 4 is right up your alley!!! For the record SR1 will more than likely be accepted in the unlimited 2 class once we look to make a change to the reverse rule. However if no one signs up for ISA and requests it then.......?

As for "all those old race rhinos", I have been hearing about them for 2 years now. SR1 was supposed to rescue them and Worcs has had the class, Class 3 for them to race in. So if "all those old race rhinos" really do exist they have places to run. Problem is "all those race rhinos" really aren't there. I think there is far fewer than people really think. Other than that ISA has made the Production 700, essentially a WORCS class 3, for Rhinos to come and run against other Rhinos.

Anyway, back to that 4wd beast.....you are the first I have ever heard that has this goal or plan and has some hard facts to make it work. Only other 4wd street bike utv out there that races I have seen is a rolling turd bucket that either breaks or catches fire everytime it hits the track. Knowing you, your results will be much better an I hope you do it!

[JoeyD23]

Rupert, I wanted to comment on your last paragraph, there is a place to race that Rhino, WORCS! Class 3 Rhino guys have been having fun there for years. This is simple and fun racing. Just excactly why I hope they keep it that way.

Class 3 and Production 700 are the same classes essentially. Minor changes to improve safety and future competitiveness were added. ISA rules won't spoil any fun, promise you that. Anyone who raced Class 3 last year would fit the ISA production 700 class with minor fixes.

Embrace the future. Your car for example is the epitome of what the ISA would love to see for Production 850. You got nothing to fear but fear itself.

If there are particular rules that worry you I beg you to please send Mike lasher an email so he can work and explain to you the meaning and how they apply.

[Darryl89]

Like I said Jeff, Joey,
200HP+ cars...and it's been less than a week since the rules came out...
I told ya so...:D....now put this motor/trans/4WD in Jim and Melissa's tube car and you have that ultimate UTV that will outrun all the other poor cars that get put into Unlimited 4...

But thank you for the interpretation Jeff, that my car actually should qualify for Production 4.

Actually, I'm excited to see what wild creations come out of this. I would like to see UTV's smoke more of the other classes out there.

[tatum]

Even IF they did build it,it would take time to fabricate,setup,make reliable,etc,etc.If I was you I would worry if Geiser said they were gonna build a UTV.Go race!

[rupert14]

My biggest problem is that I have too many cars in the works right now. I will supply a race Teryx, and all the drivetrain parts ( I already have them on my floor) to any shop that wants to sponsor/partner in the project with me. I even have some top secret hubs for UTV's that will allow the use of readily available 15" wheels, large four piston willwood calipers, 930 CV's, and all four wheels/hubs/brakes will be considerably less than current gear one rear hubs alone. I designed/developed these specifically for this project.

Any takers? We could have killed the Ultra four cars at almost every race with this setup.

[747ink]

Had a great discusion with Trevor at 747Ink and he will be getting on board with ISA. His concerns are the Floor Board Rule and the LT Kit Rule. But after breaking the rules down he even sees that what we have in terms of Production 700, 850, 1000 that we are really close to Class 1, 2, & 3. ISA injected in the safety stuff the rules needed!

I do have way more concerns than that I'm not on board just yet and no rules have been changed and i will not support the current rules . sorry butt they are way off . safety yes rules that have to do cosmetics and factory needs no ! I could care less what kawasaki wants on my car . If the factory wants there cars to look acertain way than they can build there own car . By the way the three cars on the cover sheet are illegal as far as your rules are concerned .

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

IF KAWASAKI IS MAKING YOU RUN FACTORY HOODS THATS NOT COOL.
I will buy a POLARIS and put a TERYX hood on the bad boy and say I won with a KAWI!
What does a hood have to do with racing or is it FACTORY DRIVERS ONLY?
WHERE'S ARE FREEDOM??
Lets clear this up here on the UNDERGROUND?
IS THIS TRUE????????????????????????????????????????

[JoeyD23]

Well when I typed that you were good? lol anyway, you concern with your fiberglass hoods and fenders you make is not a Kawasaki problem or Polaris problem. The problem would be with your racers. If Kawi or Polaris sponsors a racer and tells them one of the requirements is to run their factory hood and fenders I don't see how you can be mad at that?? If your hood is that important to the racer then they could deny any support from said manufacturer.

If you sponsor a racer you ask them to run your stickers, etc. which no different then what they want accept it causes you to lose business. You can't take things so personally, like everyone is trying to get you Trevor.

ISA wants cars to look like the UTVs they are. Kawasaki, Polaris, AC, Yamaha, etc will all like this rule. If you want to build a RZR that looks like a rhino then you can race it in Unlimited class or any non ISA series.

Again if Kawasaki or anyone else offers factory support they can tell the racer to do anything they want. If the racer don't like it then he can find another sponsor? Why is this so hard to understand. Monster sponsors a truck, they say to paint it black, you say no I want it white, they say go find another sponsor GOODBYE. Why am I explaining this? This is common sense.

[JoeyD23]

IF KAWASAKI IS MAKING YOU RUN FACTORY HOODS THATS NOT COOL.
I will buy a POLARIS and put a TERYX hood on the bad boy and say I won with a KAWI!
What does a hood have to do with racing or is it FACTORY DRIVERS ONLY?
WHERE'S ARE FREEDOM??
Lets clear this up here on the UNDERGROUND?
IS THIS TRUE????????????????????????????????????????
Dan if you owned a Teryx and put Trevor's hood on it do you think they are going to come to your house and force you to put a hood back on it??? LMFAO. Give me a break. If you want a Kawi deal then your Teryx better look the way THE SPONSOR wants it to look. There is no issue here, it's common sense. You can't run BFG tires and expect Pit Bull to keep giving you tires. For the love of god, pull your head out of your arse......hahahah. ISA wants UTVs to look like what they are. If you don't like the rule then sign up for ISA and petition it.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

I can see as a FACTORY DRIVER the manufacture making you run there hood,You get support and or paid.
But someone that has a aftermarket hood can't run in any ISA EVENT? Is this right?

[the stripping shop]

I can see as a FACTORY DRIVER the manufacture making you run there hood,You get support and or paid.
But someone that has a aftermarket hood can't run in any ISA EVENT? Is this right?

good point. i guess what he is trying to say if full bore/maier/buckshot sponsored that class it would be ok. but since there are no sponsors only run factory stuff. i see the loop hole

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

good point. i guess what he is trying to say if full bore/maier/buckshot sponsored that class it would be ok. but since there are no sponsors only run factory stuff. i see the loop hole

747INK MAKES FIBERGLASS HOODS AND MADE THE FATROD'S here on UTVunderground.I can see where Trevor is coming from.

Pay me and I will run what ever hood you want,if the price is right?

[747ink]

joey I don't think anybody is trying to get me first of all . I am concerned for the worcs series and it's rule book I don't get money from factory so i would like the freedom to make changes to my cars I build Not being able to change pedals ,floorboards ,bodypanels,frame,no weld on shock mounts ,lights , stock plastic crap and the list goes on if you ever went to the races you would know how many people these rules are going to effect . maybe isa should start your own series and you could run your rule bible and see how many cars you get you remind me of the witnesses that come to your door and try and push there beliefs onto you . see you at the races . ps for those who earned or want to run a number you have been running for a long time the gestapo is going to change that to. worcs is the best series for a reason back off !!!

[mark#63]

One is having the Production classes have to use off-the-shelf LT kits and using stock shock mounts or off- the shelf shock towers. I can see the reason for doing that is to keep from having one-off, specialized suspensions built. But that forces racers to have to spend thousands of dollars for a LT kit. When many of them can build their own at much less.

The LT Kit thing can be corrected. And even if it wasn't if you had someone build the kit all they would have to say is that they can build another one for sale...BOOM!




If the rules are that easily bent, then how is ISA going to enforce what's what!
just curious.

The tech guys are really going to have a problem deciding if the LT kit (or anything else) is off the
shelf or self made!

WORCS's rules are fine, I agree we need more saftey rules! Example: mandatory doors,window nets, 5 point harness, and fire safety equipment.

[rupert14]

[QUOTE=JoeyD23;81178]
As for "all those old race rhinos", I have been hearing about them for 2 years now. SR1 was supposed to rescue them and Worcs has had the class, Class 3 for them to race in. So if "all those old race rhinos" really do exist they have places to run. Problem is "all those race rhinos" really aren't there. I think there is far fewer than people really think. Other than that ISA has made the Production 700, essentially a WORCS class 3, for Rhinos to come and run against other Rhinos.

QUOTE]


I hear you and some would agree. How do we explain the pictures I have from snowflake 2008 where there were 75 UTV's racing? We have never gotten anywhere near that many UTV's to any race since (perhaps the soboba was closest) and people are buying/building new race cars every day. They are going somewhere, just not to the races.

I am simply trying to figure out how to get folks out to race. The year I saw so many cars at snowflake the feeling was that many built/brought their play cars with a welded cage and had a great time. I think that is the direction we are trying to go here and that is what I like. Anyone else notice how many pro UTV drivers are left in Lucas? If you don't have a 20K motor you cant hang. I like the idea of bringing UTV racing back to it's grass roots: two average guys standing in the garage and one says "I bet my rhino can get from A to B faster than yours".

[JoeyD23]

One is having the Production classes have to use off-the-shelf LT kits and using stock shock mounts or off- the shelf shock towers. I can see the reason for doing that is to keep from having one-off, specialized suspensions built. But that forces racers to have to spend thousands of dollars for a LT kit. When many of them can build their own at much less.

The LT Kit thing can be corrected. And even if it wasn't if you had someone build the kit all they would have to say is that they can build another one for sale...BOOM!




If the rules are that easily bent, then how is ISA going to enforce what's what!
just curious.

The tech guys are really going to have a problem deciding if the LT kit (or anything else) is off the
shelf or self made!

WORCS's rules are fine, I agree we need more saftey rules! Example: mandatory doors,window nets, 5 point harness, and fire safety equipment.




Thats not bending the rules at all... If the guy can build one then he can build another right?

[cuflipn]

WOW!

Haha well looks like I have some small changes to roll in before KOH :D

Oh one last thing. My Name is Brett Carter owner of Krawl Ind. I fabricate many different off road components that include long travel suspension... So please let me know if you would like to buy a set.

There my A-arms are now per the rules. They are available and for sale:D

LMFAO!! See you all at KOH!!

Cheers,

Brett

[Darryl89]

WOW!

Haha well looks like I have some small changes to roll in before KOH :D

Oh one last thing. My Name is Brett Carter owner of Krawl Ind. I fabricate many different off road components that include long travel suspension... So please let me know if you would like to buy a set.

There my A-arms are now per the rules. They are available and for sale:D

LMFAO!! See you all at KOH!!

Cheers,

Brett

Brett, you and I both need to figure out how we get past that rule that says we can't use weld in shock towers and have to retain the stock material for the upper shock mounts...Hmmm... think guy, think....

Oh, I bet you could sell several kits if they didn't cost what, $15000...LOL

[JoeyD23]

joey I don't think anybody is trying to get me first of all . I am concerned for the worcs series and it's rule book I don't get money from factory so i would like the freedom to make changes to my cars I build Not being able to change pedals ,floorboards ,bodypanels,frame,no weld on shock mounts ,lights , stock plastic crap and the list goes on if you ever went to the races you would know how many people these rules are going to effect . maybe isa should start your own series and you could run your rule bible and see how many cars you get you remind me of the witnesses that come to your door and try and push there beliefs onto you . see you at the races . ps for those who earned or want to run a number you have been running for a long time the gestapo is going to change that to. worcs is the best series for a reason back off !!!



If I ever went to the races??????? Now we are on personal attacks? Do I need to spell my race schedule out? lol

I keep hearing all these blanket statements about how the rules are going to RUIN a series or car count, so how many cars do these rules affect? How many cars have Fiberglass hoods, Welded Shock Towers, NON Factory plastics, moved peddles, etc etc etc? We are talking WORCS here still right, so lay it out.......Lets put some hard numbers down. I am smart enough to know that if you said 90% of all cars at WORCS would fail an ISA tech inspection that WORCS or no one else would EVER adopt them thus making your fear and anger a waste of time. I would bet less than 5% would have to make changes. No one should be turned away, especially those who have raced in WORCS this whole season and that I agree with and would campaign for. The ISA is here to foster growth, not PUSH a BIBLE of rules on you heathens of racing...hahhaha THAT WAS A JOKE...

I am not PUSHING anything on ANYONE, if the ISA has anyone to PUSH its the race orgs. I thought you guys would appreciate having a look at the rules before that ever happened. How would you feel if I or the ISA hadn't made the rules public? May have been better for me, I wouldn't have my friends now attacking me personally or my RACE SCHEDULE....hahahah

I thought you guys would also appreciate having someone like me take the time out of my day and life to help answer questions.

With that said, I will continue to answer questions where I can. I don't pretend to be all knowing or the rules guy here. I understand a good majority, those I don't I ask that you contact Mike Lasher or Jeff Knoll for clarification. We have said that more than few times. If you don't like rules then fine, let it go. No one is going to put a gun to your head and make you like them or abide by them.

I think I have done enough over the last 3 years to prove myself as a worthy proponent for this sport and until you can show me one other person or site that has dedicated more to this sport of UTV racing in terms of coverage and promotion I would ask that you refrain from making comments about me personally and what my goals are for this association or anything else.

Anyway, I need to put my tie back on and get back on my bike! Its a long ride to adelanto where my mission of preaching the gospel of ISA takes me next.....God Bless

[cuflipn]

Brett, you and I both need to figure out how we get past that rule that says we can't use weld in shock towers and have to retain the stock material for the upper shock mounts...Hmmm... think guy, think....

Oh, I bet you could sell several kits if they didn't cost what, $15000...LOL


Hmmm. I will need to go back a read it again. I must have missed that part Darryl???

Really no welded shock towers?? are we talking the same class I am thinking I only fit in the Unlimited 4.

Well if this is the case I will have to pass :( seems silly though!

Oh yes and thank you for clearing up the price thing LOL
Crack me up!

[JoeyD23]

Brett I think your car will fall into the Unlimited 4 classification.....With that said, I don't think you will have any problem being competitive in it either.

[Darryl89]

Hmmm. I will need to go back a read it again. I must have missed that part Darryl???

Really no welded shock towers?? are we talking the same class I am thinking I only fit in the Unlimited 4.

Well if this is the case I will have to pass :( seems silly though!

Oh yes and thank you for clearing up the price thing LOL
Crack me up!

Yeah, that's in the Production 1000... I would fit in that class actually if it wasn't for the welded shock towers and off-the-shelf LT kit. I can get past the LT kit, but not the welded shock towers part.
So I guess I'll end up in the Unlimited 4 also...right next to that 224hp, 1300cc motored car that someone was talking about building... hope he breaks something so we can have a chance..LOL
I've got to get new a-arms built for the rear myself, twisted the ones that kid in Phoenix built... they were too weak. But it left 70ft of black mark on asphalt, with 28 inch ITPs in high range...so yeah, it's got some power...maybe I can keep that other guy's taillights in view..


Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't mind being in the U-4 class... might inspire me to go bigger... I know of some big big bore kits for the H2...
I just like giving Joey a hard time... Keep on going Joey, you are making good ground..

[747ink]

You have gone to one worcs race and with your tech experience I'm sure you would see that you will effect 90% of the cars look at the pics of worcs and tell me you found one that would pass your new rules shall we make small bet here . MR D

[cuflipn]

Brett I think your car will fall into the Unlimited 4 classification.....With that said, I don't think you will have any problem being competitive in it either.

Joey I fully 100% agree I know I am competitive in the Unlimited 4 :D
Thank you for your confidents!!

Yeah, that's in the Production 1000... I would fit in that class actually if it wasn't for the welded shock towers and off-the-shelf LT kit. I can get past the LT kit, but not the welded shock towers part.
So I guess I'll end up in the Unlimited 4 also...right next to that 224hp, 1300cc motored car that someone was talking about building... hope he breaks something so we can have a chance..LOL
I've got to get new a-arms built for the rear myself, twisted the ones that kid in Phoenix built... they were too weak. But it left 70ft of black mark on asphalt, with 28 inch ITPs in high range...so yeah, it's got some power...maybe I can keep that other guy's taillights in view..


Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't mind being in the U-4 class... might inspire me to go bigger... I know of some big big bore kits for the H2...
I just like giving Joey a hard time... Keep on going Joey, you are making good ground..

Ok so there is the discrepancy :D LOL Unlimited 4 is what I was reading...

Hey Darryl, buddy dont worry about the high horsepower cars so much! I agree with you that its a key part of a good car but it isnt everything!! The KOH is such a brutal race your car better be build 110% not just in the motor! If you miss one thing the Hammers will find it and tear it apart. This is why I like this race it pushes every aspect from design, fab, planning, driving...


Dont forget this is FUN!!

Cheers,

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

I will tell you right now I have been back and forth on this whole ISA deal.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/fernandezracing45/My%20RHINO%20BUILD/DSC_0350.jpg
If this kicks me out of the 700 production class and puts me in the unlimited 4 class due to using shock towers and a hood even if I dont have one or not,thats a bunch of bull.
You guys should have gatthered the whole UTV communities input before putting these rules on us and making us make all these changes.
My car will stay the way it is and I will continue to have fun and not make this a job!

My list goes on for the ISA.:eek:

[JoeyD23]

You have gone to one worcs race and with your tech experience I'm sure you would see that you will effect 90% of the cars look at the pics of worcs and tell me you found one that would pass your new rules shall we make small bet here . MR D


Whats the bet?

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2063.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2048.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2037.jpg
Pass, Production 1000

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2027.jpg
Pass, Prodcution 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2011.jpg
Pass, Production 1000

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_2004.jpg
FAIL, Production 700 (HAS WELDED SHOCK TOWERS)

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1988.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1975.jpg
Fail, Unlimited 4 car or sportsman

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1961.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1954.jpg
Pass, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1946.jpg
Pass, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1940.jpg
Fail in Production 700 (with slight mods will pass)NICE HOOD, looks like a Rhino to me, I would pass it!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1931.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1923.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1882.jpg
Fail in production 700 (with slight mods wil pass) NICE HOOD, looks like a rhino to me, I would pass it

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1878.jpg
Pass, Production 1000

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1845.jpg
Fail in Production 1000, needs to tie cage in 2 more points EASY FIX!!!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1838.jpg
Pass, Production 1000 (if fail Randy said he would do whatever is needed to make Tech!! Team player!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1756.jpg
Pass, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1754.jpg
Pass, Production 700 (would need to get hood back on for next race)

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1740.jpg
BOTH PASS, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1640.jpg
FAIL Production 1000, Needs panels and cage to tie in at 2 more points

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1627.jpg
Pass, Production 1000

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1617.jpg
Fail Production 1000 (Needs panels and cage to tie in at 2 more points)

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1599.jpg
Pass, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1595.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1588.jpg
Pass, Production 850

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1586.jpg
Pass, Production 700

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1562.jpg
Fail needs panels

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1523.jpg
Fail, needs panels and cage to tie into 2 more spots

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1492.jpg
Pass, production 1000






Ok so, this was most of the people who raced that I have on film from my ONLY 1 RACE ALL YEAR.....I know I suck! Anyway, looks like most would pass? Am I missing something here? Of those who dont pass its VERY SIMPLE mods to get up to spec.......

[JoeyD23]

I will tell you right now I have been back and forth on this whole ISA deal.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/fernandezracing45/My%20RHINO%20BUILD/DSC_0350.jpg
If this kicks me out of the 700 production class and puts me in the unlimited 4 class due to using shock towers and a hood even if I dont have one or not,thats a bunch of bull.
You guys should have gatthered the whole UTV communities input before putting these rules on us and making us make all these changes.
My car will stay the way it is and I will continue to have fun and not make this a job!

My list goes on for the ISA.:eek:


Ouch, sorry Dan, that would have to be modified or you would have to appeal to the race org or ISA for an exemption or something.....How many WORCS races were you going to do this next year? I bet if you planned to do a whole season and ISA rules were adopted they would work with you!

As for getting the WHOLE UTV community together to develop a rule book... as you can see by this thread that would never occur because there are too many personalities, agendas, and plain ol differences of opinions. You would never get anything done. We started with a foundation. For the 1 millionth time...if you don't like it, spend $25.00, join the ISA and help change it from the inside. These rules are living and breathing and will change with the times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[747ink]

How are you passing with mc helmet, no window nets , no gloves , shock towers ,no fire suits , you don't even know your own rule book i guess you won't be doing tech right .

[dnf736]

So this passes

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1754.jpg

And this doesnt because its welded?

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/fernandezracing45/My%20RHINO%20BUILD/DSC_0350.jpg

[JoeyD23]

How are you passing with mc helmet, no window nets , no gloves , shock towers ,no fire suits , you don't even know your own rule book i guess you won't be doing tech right .



For the LOVE OF GOD!

If you just want to argue then go stand in the mirror dude.....So now you are saying you don't want fire suits and window nets? HAHAHAHAHA Outside of what people are WEARING here, everyones UTV"S with the exception of a few don't comply AND THAT WAS THE POINT

[JoeyD23]

So this passes

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/2011%20WORCS%20Anza%20RD4/DSC_1754.jpg

And this doesnt because its welded?

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss55/fernandezracing45/My%20RHINO%20BUILD/DSC_0350.jpg

13.0 ISA Production 700
The ISA Production 700 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with a displacement of less than
700CC’s that retain the basic factory configuration and full functioning 4-wheel drive. Primarily intended to
allow Side X Sides with limited displacement a fun affordable platform for competition.
13.1 S U S P E N S I O N C O M P O N E N T S
13.1.1: SHOCK ABSORBERS
Stock shocks or aftermarket replacement shocks are permitted.
13.1.2: BUMP STOPS
Hydraulic Bump stops are not permitted
13.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits are approved
13.1.4: Stock suspension pivot points must be retained and connecting points must be free of cracks and
in good physical condition as determined by the Chief Technical Inspector or his/her delegate.


14.0 ISA Production 850
The ISA Production 850 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with a displacement of up to 850CC’s
that retain the basic factory configuration and full functioning 4-wheel drive.
14.1 S U S P E N S I O N C O M P O N E N T S
14.1.1: SHOCK ABSORBERS
Stock shocks or aftermarket replacement shocks are permitted so as far as the original chassis mounting
points are retained. Factory mounting position may have material added for the purpose to strengthen, but
must retain the factory material, and specifications. Upper shock mount can be repositioned but must be
an off the shelf bolt in kit. No weld in mounts allowed.
14.1.2: BUMP STOPS
Hydraulic Bump stops are not permitted
14.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Suspension kits must be aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits readily available for sale and must not
exceed an outside track width of 73 Inches.
14.1.4: Stock factory suspension pivot points specifications must be retained and connecting points must
be free of cracks and in good physical condition as determined by the Chief Technical Inspector or his/her
delegate. Factory suspension pivot points may have additional material added for the purpose of
strengthening but factory material must not be re-moved.



15.0 ISA Production 1000
The ISA Production 1000 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with a displacement of up to
1000CC’s that retain the basic factory configuration and full functioning 4-wheel drive.
15.1 S U S P E N S I O N C O M P O N E N T S
15.1.1: SHOCK ABSORBERS
Stock shocks or aftermarket replacement shocks are permitted so as far as the original chassis mounting
points are retained. Factory mounting position may have material added for the purpose to strengthen, but
must retain the factory material, and specifications. Upper shock mount can be repositioned but must be
an off the shelf bolt in kit. No weld in mounts allowed.
15.1.2: BUMP STOPS
Hydraulic Bump stops are not permitted
15.1.3: Long Travel Suspension
Suspension kits must be aftermarket off the shelf suspension kits readily available for sale and must not
exceed an outside track width of 77”.
15.1.4: Stock factory suspension pivot points specifications must be retained and connecting points must
be free of cracks and in good physical condition as determined by the Chief Technical Inspector or his/her
delegate. Factory suspension pivot points may have additional material added for the purpose of
strengthening but factory material must not be re-moved.




After reading it appears that the Production 700 class would allow for welded shock towers.....Am I missing something here?:cool:

[dnf736]

You're the one the saying pass/fail, Im asking you...:p

[JoeyD23]

How are you passing with mc helmet, no window nets , no gloves , shock towers ,no fire suits , you don't even know your own rule book i guess you won't be doing tech right .

This is as much YOUR rule book as it is mine. Hell, its more yours since I have no intention of racing. So you can keep making the digs at me Trevor, whatever makes your beer go down better. But for the record, I can't find anywhere in the book where it says MX helmets aren't allowed... here is what it does say....



10.1: HELMETS
Helmets must be approved by, and bear the sticker of, one of the following: Snell M2005/SA2005
M2010/SA2010 DOT/ECE 22-05/BSI. Primary helmet fastening must be by means of straps using D-ring
buckle. No snaps or Velcro will be permitted as the primary means of securing the helmet. Snaps or
Velcro may be present as a means of securing the loose ends of the helmet’s straps. The interior and
exterior of the helmet must be free from defects (i.e., the padding must be in good condition and the
exterior of the helmet must not be damaged). ISA strongly recommends that entrants use helmets
specifically designed for motor racing.

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

How about a roof JOE??? This started in the Lake Elsinore days when someone got hurt from not having a roof while racing UTV'S.

[747ink]

The point is joey that you will be telling a bunch of people that they have to change there car and there driving equipment very soon . good luck to you and the isa I will see you soon

[JoeyD23]

You're the one the saying pass/fail, Im asking you...:p

hahahaha I am making a general observation by the car...of course I can't see everything but by appearance I would say that MAJORITY of those cars fit a class designation. Trevor is scared because he thinks everyone is out to ruin his business of making full blown chop and drop race cars and that is not the case. Hell after reading even DAN FERNANDEZ aka OFFROADSWAPMEET's welded shock towers are OK for Production 700......

If I have to answer every question I will do so to the best of my ability but I make no claim to be a PRO racer or Tech guy...I do make claim to being able to READ and I am pretty confident in my common sense.....

Love you Doug, thanks for keeping me riled up!! hahahahah

[JoeyD23]

The point is joey that you will be telling a bunch of people that they have to change there car and there driving equipment very soon . good luck to you and the isa I will see you soon


Change WHAT on WHOS CAR??????? GIVE ME SOME SPECIFIC FACTS!!!! WHO WHAT WHERE WHEN HOW??? If not then, yes, just see us at the track and leave it alone. Your blanket statements of the world ending is lame. I know you are passionate, and you know I am only arguing and being candid cause we can be and we are friends. But CHRIST Trevor. What the ISA is proposing is not the end of the world. It will not cost thousands to change anything you are doing.

HOW MANY CARS ARE NOT COMPLIANT and WHY????

[JoeyD23]

How about a roof JOE??? This started in the Lake Elsinore days when someone got hurt from not having a roof while racing UTV'S.

ISA Rules :: International Side X Side Association (http://www.isxsa.com/Rules)


READ THE BOOK DAN!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!

[mark#63]

Thats not bending the rules at all... If the guy can build one then he can build another right?


I'm building mine & they're not off the shelf, like the rules state!

I just want to go the races & not have to figure out a way to bullshit my way around the rules.

Question I have a WORCS class 2 rzr-s & I'm thinking of building trailing-arm rear suspension will I be able to stay in class 2 (with a stock motor)? Or will i have to be put in another class?!

WORCS is perfect the way the classes are.
We just need more safety rules!!!

[dnf736]

hahahaha I am making a general observation by the car...of course I can't see everything but by appearance I would say that MAJORITY of those cars fit a class designation. Trevor is scared because he thinks everyone is out to ruin his business of making full blown chop and drop race cars and that is not the case. Hell after reading even DAN FERNANDEZ aka OFFROADSWAPMEET's welded shock towers are OK for Production 700......

If I have to answer every question I will do so to the best of my ability but I make no claim to be a PRO racer or Tech guy...I do make claim to being able to READ and I am pretty confident in my common sense.....

Love you Doug, thanks for keeping me riled up!! hahahahah

Just doing my job, I'll jump in earlier next time if you like?
http://i.gottadeal.com/forums/images/smilies/stick_poke.gif

[JimandMelissa]

Does anyone know where I can pick up an old Rhino hood and a decent MC engine?

I think that's all I need.......:cool:

[BiggJim]

Does anyone know where I can pick up an old Rhino hood and a decent MC engine?

I think that's all I need.......:cool:

Ebay:D

[JoeyD23]

I'm building mine & they're not off the shelf, like the rules state!

I just want to go the races & not have to figure out a way to bullshit my way around the rules.

Question I have a WORCS class 2 rzr-s & I'm thinking of building trailing-arm rear suspension will I be able to stay in class 2 (with a stock motor)? Or will i have to be put in another class?!

WORCS is perfect the way the classes are.
We just need more safety rules!!!



Yeah with what you are wanting to do Mark it would push you out of the Production 850 and into Unlimited 4. Sucks, I know! Guys need to know that I am bummed when I read or have to explain this stuff too. I want everyone on the track and on the trails. I am an equal opportunity offender! lol But seriously, I hope to see you on the track next year!!

[Darryl89]

Does anyone know where I can pick up an old Rhino hood and a decent MC engine?

I think that's all I need.......:cool:

I think you can fit a 1300cc motor in, maybe even a Kawi 1700 Vulcan motor... then you can put a Teryx hood on it...look even better...

I found a guy that builds V-twin race engines, he said he can get my H2 up to between 1300 and 1400cc pretty easy...he'll build a girdle for the motor and primary trans, then heat treat the gears to support the extra power and install a cv drive system from a snowmobile...he thinks he can keep it all in the same engine bay... Hehehe :D

[JimandMelissa]

I think you can fit a 1300cc motor in, maybe even a Kawi 1700 Vulcan motor... then you can put a Teryx hood on it...look even better...

I found a guy that builds V-twin race engines, he said he can get my H2 up to between 1300 and 1400cc pretty easy...he'll build a girdle for the motor and primary trans, then heat treat the gears to support the extra power and install a cv drive system from a snowmobile...he thinks he can keep it all in the same engine bay... Hehehe :D

I think I must accept they will never acknowledge me here as a UTV. :(

But I will have a great time driving my "whatever you call it" in the Dez :cool:

[Darryl89]

Jim, found the hot ticket for you... a 139cu in Orca Turbo motor...made for Harleys. It's a 2277cc turbo motor that puts out 350hp, but you could detune it down to 275 for reliability. It can go up to over 400hp if you wanted.
Match that up to your 4wd system... the rules state the motor can't be a automobile motor...I don't remember anything about the transmission not being automotive...

[450grl]

Unlimited 4 is right up your alley!!! For the record SR1 will more than likely be accepted in the unlimited 2 class once we look to make a change to the reverse rule. However if no one signs up for ISA and requests it then.......?

As for "all those old race rhinos", I have been hearing about them for 2 years now. SR1 was supposed to rescue them and Worcs has had the class, Class 3 for them to race in. So if "all those old race rhinos" really do exist they have places to run. Problem is "all those race rhinos" really aren't there. I think there is far fewer than people really think. Other than that ISA has made the Production 700, essentially a WORCS class 3, for Rhinos to come and run against other Rhinos.



I have to chime in here and say that we have sold over 80 SR1 kits, and sell more every week. There are racers still in the works (no pun intended haha) and plenty of duners that just like to have fun, that are kicking the idea of racing around alot. So there must be a lot of old Rhinos around somewhere (unless they are all 4-seaters now!)......sometimes it take a series like WORCS for them to feel comfortable enough to try out a race or two, because it's low pressure and a laid-back atmosphere.

Now, I have to pose this question: Why would I support an organization that is making my entire class illegal? Why would any SR1 racer?

The ISA would be alot more inclined to get my $25 if their proposed rules weren't DQ'ing my car from every class they have designed.

Joey, I like your marketing strategy of "pay the $25 and ask for change", but something is just not right about that to me. IMO, ISA needs the racers alot more than the racers need the ISA.

I'm also wondering, if the ISA rules are adopted by a series like WORCS, if us racers will have to pay the $25 ISA membership fee to race a race in WORCS? In addition to a WORCS license? And would this be the case for any series that adopts the ISA rules?

One other question.....let's say WORCS does adopt ISA rules. Is WORCS now no longer held liable if someone gets hurt (and I asbsolutely hope that never happens)? Is the ISA going to be responsible? Or will WORCS be held liable no matter who's rules they adopt? This is a serious question.....I'm trying to understand the value to a promoter for adopting the ISA rules, beyond just not having to make their own rules up.

I notice the tone getting more and more defensive on this thread, and I want to be sure to point out that I am not attacking.....just making some points and trying to understand a bit more.

I ask a lot of questions.....just ask Jason, when he's working on my SR1....it drives him nuts!! ;) But I'm a thinker, and asking questions is how I gather information to make informed decisions and understand stuff. :)

[JimandMelissa]

Jim, found the hot ticket for you... a 139cu in Orca Turbo motor...made for Harleys. It's a 2277cc turbo motor that puts out 350hp, but you could detune it down to 275 for reliability. It can go up to over 400hp if you wanted.
Match that up to your 4wd system... the rules state the motor can't be a automobile motor...I don't remember anything about the transmission not being automotive...

The first line of the rule book is too subjective:

"The ISA UNLIMITED 4 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with unlimited displacement that retains the basic factory configuration"

I'd never get past the gate.

[Darryl89]

The first line of the rule book is too subjective:

"The ISA UNLIMITED 4 class is reserved for Modified SideXSides with unlimited displacement that retains the basic factory configuration"

I'd never get past the gate.


nah, slide to main frame rails from a Teryx into your frame, slap on a hood and you got Unlimited 4...come on... :rolleyes:

[Long Travel Ind.]

You have gone to one worcs race and with your tech experience I'm sure you would see that you will effect 90% of the cars look at the pics of worcs and tell me you found one that would pass your new rules shall we make small bet here . MR D

I took a car that we built that would pass the production 850 rules (class 2) oh yea and we won too!!!

[JoeyD23]

I have to chime in here and say that we have sold over 80 SR1 kits, and sell more every week. There are racers still in the works (no pun intended haha) and plenty of duners that just like to have fun, that are kicking the idea of racing around alot. So there must be a lot of old Rhinos around somewhere (unless they are all 4-seaters now!)......sometimes it take a series like WORCS for them to feel comfortable enough to try out a race or two, because it's low pressure and a laid-back atmosphere.

Now, I have to pose this question: Why would I support an organization that is making my entire class illegal? Why would any SR1 racer?

The ISA would be alot more inclined to get my $25 if their proposed rules weren't DQ'ing my car from every class they have designed.

Joey, I like your marketing strategy of "pay the $25 and ask for change", but something is just not right about that to me. IMO, ISA needs the racers alot more than the racers need the ISA.

I'm also wondering, if the ISA rules are adopted by a series like WORCS, if us racers will have to pay the $25 ISA membership fee to race a race in WORCS? In addition to a WORCS license? And would this be the case for any series that adopts the ISA rules?

One other question.....let's say WORCS does adopt ISA rules. Is WORCS now no longer held liable if someone gets hurt (and I asbsolutely hope that never happens)? Is the ISA going to be responsible? Or will WORCS be held liable no matter who's rules they adopt? This is a serious question.....I'm trying to understand the value to a promoter for adopting the ISA rules, beyond just not having to make their own rules up.

I notice the tone getting more and more defensive on this thread, and I want to be sure to point out that I am not attacking.....just making some points and trying to understand a bit more.

I ask a lot of questions.....just ask Jason, when he's working on my SR1....it drives him nuts!! ;) But I'm a thinker, and asking questions is how I gather information to make informed decisions and understand stuff. :)



I am taking DEEP breaths...I told myself I wouldnt get this involved but here I am opening my big mouth...hahhahaa

You are all good Corry....


You don't have to join, and I know its tough for you or any SR1 racer to see the benefit in joining with the rule that eliminates your car. That rule being that it must have reverse. Internally we have discussed this and as we look to making a change to the book I am confident that rule will be amended and changed thus allowing SR1 in the Unlimited 2 class.

If WORCS was to adopt the the ISA rulebook there would be a 1 time racer fee the way I understand it. This fee I think if I read correctly is also $25.00. Not a huge deal right? Its not like the fees you see with UTVRA at BITD or LOORRS.

We do need racers, but we need recreational riders just as much if not more. Our goal at the ISA is not just to be a racing sanctioning body but it is also being established to be a voice for the entire industry. In time we would like to be joining the fight against land closures and other important issues pertaining to our industry and sport. But that has already been touched on in other threads. Point is, ISA has goals far beyond just racing. This is just a segment of what the ISA is.

As for Liability. I am not even going to go there as that is WAY out of my realm. But logic tells me that these rules would only HELP in preventing any sort of major accident. Should one occur and a party chooses to sue then knowing how this great country works the series promotor, ISA, the manufacturer of the vehicle, and the property owner of where the wreck occurred would all be blamed. Nature of the beast. As the ISA grows financially I would assume things would be put in place like the AMA has which would offer legal support in the case of a major situation like we are discussing.

I know you have sold a ton of SR1 kits, I see the posts and video all over all the time. It is amazing!!

[450grl]

This is very good information - thank you! :)

And seriously....I think sometimes Jason wants to throw a wrench at me when I am pointing at things and saying "wait, why are we replacing that?" or "so, what is that you are doing there?", etc.

Thank you for not throwing anything at me - lol!

[JoeyD23]

Jason? Jeff was the killer I thought? hahahah I can remember that New Years Eve night when I was in the shop and the guys were fixing my rhino motor, remember that night? When Jeff pulled the motor out I was standing over his shoulder, just trying to learn, and man I asked a couple of questions and I thought he was going to knock my head off!!!! hahahhaha He was like, JOEY When I figure out whats wrong I WILL TELL YOU! hahhaah But it was all good! Weller Racing went all out for me that night!

[747ink]

I took a car that we built that would pass the production 850 rules (class 2) oh yea and we won too!!!


So nolans car has stock floors and bolt on shock towers and are we allowed to pinch the rear for stock appearance .

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

ISA ROCKS!

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

And he's behind our sport?

[Brian B]

The gloves are off in this here thread! :eek:

[OFFROADSWAPMEET]

Do we take this to the UTVUG OCTAGON????

[Brian B]

I'm going to put a turbo busa, roll cage, and a rhino hood on this and race Unlimited 2!

[Long Travel Ind.]

So nolans car has stock floors and bolt on shock towers and are we allowed to pinch the rear for stock appearance . looks like the car bottoms out great . Thanks for getting the info on the boots i needed o yea i forgot your to busy to do that because kawasaki is way more important than my little race team . I guess being on the isa board has its perks :) weld on towers make it illegal nolans build is on utvug so did you forget you weldedthem on or don't know your rules

WOW!! let's all feel bad for trevor day!! yes it has stock floorborads in it!! his shock towers are the exact same ones that I sell with my Kit that bolt into the stock upper shock mounts and you drill 4 more hole to bolt them in....yes I did weld his in if he is going to race in that class I will cut the welds and leave them bolted in I built the car for KOH not WORCS so it does have a little less ground clearance at full bump than we normally build them That pic was the landing of that huge table at anza and it didn't dig in like a lot of other cars out there. What does your boots have anything to do with ISA? if my axles do not work then by all means go back to the crap you were using before because those seem to be so good, and yes my sponsor is important to me just as your race team is to you!! Perks? I Have (as well as many others) VOLUNTEERED countless hours to HELP the UTV industry grow in the right direction by starting the ISA!!

[JoeyD23]

I'm going to put a turbo busa, roll cage, and a rhino hood on this and race Unlimited 2!

CHEATER! lol

[Long Travel Ind.]

I'm going to put a turbo busa, roll cage, and a rhino hood on this and race Unlimited 2!

Right on Brian can I co-drive with you!!:D

[Mike L]

Where's the option to take away from someones rep points?

Dan that was completely uncalled for and was not needed. I think there are alot of people in this thread that are very passionate about seeing UTV racing successful and there is no need for name calling or airing so called issues with one of your sponsors competitors and trying to drag their name in the mud!

If you spend half the amount of the time you do on the computer trying to blast the ISA and what we are trying to do and did something positive with that time the UTV world would be alot nicer place IMO!

[JoeyD23]

I know one thing, a lot of eyeballs are on this thread. I have been getting calls of encouragement and discouragement alike all day long. I can tell you this much, people are tired of the BS. They just want to race, and race under a book that is fair for everyone and will stand the test of time. While the book may be hard for some to digest right now I think as time passes people will relax and begin to actually see that what is being proposed by the ISA for this industry is actually really good for it.

[Long Travel Ind.]

BONG!!

[Brian B]

I just want to race! I don't want to race Unlimited 4, but I'm not going to cry about it. I'm going to man up, and work my ass off to come up with a setup that works for me in that class!

[rupert14]

I know one thing, a lot of eyeballs are on this thread. I have been getting calls of encouragement and discouragement alike all day long. I can tell you this much, people are tired of the BS. They just want to race, and race under a book that is fair for everyone and will stand the test of time. While the book may be hard for some to digest right now I think as time passes people will relax and begin to actually see that what is being proposed by the ISA for this industry is actually really good for it.

Keep some classes affordable, and let the idiots like me spend our money and race together. I like the new book. I spent my afternoon working on my race teryx you internet bitches. Quit complaining and go build a race car!

[dezerteryx]

this is getting just sad if your going to attack others do it somewhere else. i raced the one worcs race he did with his KOH built car and everything was bolt on at that time. and if you read the rules again for production 850 it dosent say anything about beefing up the frame and or mounting points as long as they are the factory mounting points. also nothing about pinching the tail so that would make it all legal. if you guys would stop getting so emotinal about and read what the rules say and not try to pick it apart and read way to far into them. a for the shock towers if you read what jeff said earlier being that you are a builder and you make the part availible for sale its off the self hint hint. also it has been said again and again these arent perminent and can be changed also they have not been adoted by worcs or any of the other series other than KOH so stop getting your panties in a wodd and keep doin what your doin till until the rules change.

[JoeyD23]

Keep some classes affordable, and let the idiots like me spend our money and race together. I like the new book. I spent my afternoon working on my race teryx you internet bitches. Quit complaining and go build a race car!

REP!!! Buying you a beer next time I see you for this one Bobby! :D

I just want to race! I don't want to race Unlimited 4, but I'm not going to cry about it. I'm going to man up, and work my ass off to come up with a setup that works for me in that class!

Rep for you too Brian!!! You should just be pumped you actually have a CLASS you fit in now!!! hahahaha

this is getting just sad if your going to attack others do it somewhere else. i raced the one worcs race he did with his KOH built car and everything was bolt on at that time. and if you read the rules again for production 850 it dosent say anything about beefing up the frame and or mounting points as long as they are the factory mounting points. also nothing about pinching the tail so that would make it all legal. if you guys would stop getting so emotinal about and read what the rules say and not try to pick it apart and read way to far into them. a for the shock towers if you read what jeff said earlier being that you are a builder and you make the part availible for sale its off the self hint hint. also it has been said again and again these arent perminent and can be changed also they have not been adoted by worcs or any of the other series other than KOH so stop getting your panties in a wodd and keep doin what your doin till until the rules change.


HOLY CRAP! 3 awesome posts in a row!!! Someone actually read the book! hahahahah and the tide starts to turn......

Rep for you too!

[dezerteryx]

joey you coming out for the show and shine next saturday would definitly be a good place for some ISA talk.

[dnf736]

For a bunch of golf cart racers you guys sure get cranky about your rule book.....http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-stirthepot.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

Seriously though, you have to run a factory hood?

[dezerteryx]

For a bunch of golf cart racers you guys sure get cranky about your rule book.....http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-stirthepot.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

Seriously though, you have to run a factory hood?

production 850
14.10.9: Chassis frame may not be modified from factory specifications. Vehicles are to retain overall UTV appearance as delivered from the factory. Weight minimum 1200lbs

so no the factory hood is not required is what i get out of it as long as it looks like a kawi, yamaha, poolaris, etc. kind of like nascar.lol

[Brian B]

No empyre Rhino hoods lmao!

[JoeyD23]

For a bunch of golf cart racers you guys sure get cranky about your rule book.....http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-stirthepot.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/)

Seriously though, you have to run a factory hood?

No you can run an aftermarket hood it just has to retain the look of the car. So for example, you can run any of Trevor's amazing fiberglass hoods but you can't run his Rhino hood on a RZR or his Teryx Hood on a Rhino (like I did on the fatrod).

Empyre hoods should be banned however for being extremely ugly! lol

joey you coming out for the show and shine next saturday would definitly be a good place for some ISA talk.

Reid and I were planning on coming out but since WORCS has called this drivers meeting we want to go and support that and answer any questions people may have in person regarding the ISA.

However, we have talked about possibly going to Superstition on Sunday if people were still around to ride!?

I really want to mob this Teryx4!

[dnf736]

No you can run an aftermarket hood it just has to retain the look of the car. So for example, you can run any of Trevor's amazing fiberglass hoods but you can't run his Rhino hood on a RZR or his Teryx Hood on a Rhino (like I did on the fatrod).

Oh dont start sucking up now....

However, we have talked about possibly going to Superstition on Sunday if people were still around to ride!?


I would join you (since super is 90 min from my front door) but have too much work to do B4 Vegas.

[dezerteryx]

No you can run an aftermarket hood it just has to retain the look of the car. So for example, you can run any of Trevor's amazing fiberglass hoods but you can't run his Rhino hood on a RZR or his Teryx Hood on a Rhino (like I did on the fatrod).

Empyre hoods should be banned however for being extremely ugly! lol



Reid and I were planning on coming out but since WORCS has called this drivers meeting we want to go and support that and answer any questions people may have in person regarding the ISA.

However, we have talked about possibly going to Superstition on Sunday if people were still around to ride!?

I really want to mob this Teryx4!

there will still be people there sunday i plan on staying the night and riding most the day sunday too.

[Brian B]

Empyre hoods should be banned however for being extremely ugly! lol






Rep!

[JoeyD23]

Oh dont start sucking up now....



I would join you (since super is 90 min from my front door) but have too much work to do B4 Vegas.

If you guys would stop crashing and burning cars up you could come play...lol....low blow I know...hahahahah Love you Dougie!

there will still be people there sunday i plan on staying the night and riding most the day sunday too.

Then maybe we will see you out there Dave! Keep you guys posted

Rep!

I need all the Rep I can get so here is some Rep for giving me Rep! lol

[dnf736]

If you guys would stop crashing and burning cars up you could come play...lol....low blow I know...hahahahah Love you Dougie!


wow, ok.

[JoeyD23]

wow, ok.

hahahahaha.....oh Doug, you know I was only teasing..... ;)

[Jeff Knoll]

I think I see the problem after reading and catching up this morning from the great state of Montana.

This is not meant to be a dig on anyones experience, its meant to point out a weakness in our rule writing panel.

The rule book was written by a panel of seasoned racing veterans. Look at the list and you will see what I mean. People who have a long history of disseminating rules. A rule may be as clear as the Big sky country to me, but some may not understand that if something is not explicitly listed as not approved then in most cases its ok. Sometimes you have to use multiple rules together to make a case.

Personally I know I have a habit of being a protective as possible regarding liability from 15 years of contract writing experience. I sometimes forget that the average person hates reading contracts.

Corry's question about liability is answered in the forward of the rule book.

I think its worth mentioning that rules can be changed, and rules can be challenged. The format allows for this process to take place in a manner that prevents one person from dictating the out come.

My advice to anyone who feels the rules are too restrictive is to print the section that affects you, and make notes. Then read the Forward and glossary. I don't normally hang my self out like a pair of Dogs balls, but for the sake of helping people get a handle on the rules I will do it. Please make sure you read the glossary, and the forward section of the rules carefully. I think it will clear up some of the things that are being beaten up on here.


Looks like there will be another promoter coming on board next week, who was completely lost when it came to UTV rules and thought the ISA made perfect sense. But rather than have him face calls from people who don't race with him telling him how dumb our rules are I am gonna wait until he is 100% up on the rules. He has read them from cover to cover but wants the weekend to completely analyze them.


Last thing before I go back to enjoying the wilds of Montana. Any person could have done what this group did. Even the existing UTVRA. No one wanted to take on the burden of the work that would have to be done for free. This group did for the better of the sport. Maybe a little slack is in order, and the personal attacks should be refrained from.

Creating a selection of affordable safe racing opportunities remains one of our missions. We will execute to the best of our ability.

[450grl]

Jeff, since you have stated the reverse rule was an oversight, are you going to allow non-reverse UTV's in Unlimited 2?

[Jeff Knoll]

Jeff, since you have stated the reverse rule was an oversight, are you going to allow non-reverse UTV's in Unlimited 2?

I don't have the authority to change the rule, but I am betting the next time the BOD meets it will be on the agenda. The next meeting has not been set yet, but I will likely ask for a meeting in the next three weeks to follow up on this topic. Next week is beyond busy, and the following week is SEMA. I am guessing it will be after SEMA.

[450grl]

Ok - I'm obviously very interested in the outcome of that meeting and will be looking forward to any updates. Thanks!

[rupert14]

Ok - I'm obviously very interested in the outcome of that meeting and will be looking forward to any updates. Thanks!


Me too! My DSR1 chassis will be at Weller this week for the R1 install. Let's keep the class going.

[megonzo]

Do we take this to the UTVUG OCTAGON????
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Love you~! Excellent plan. <SNICKER>;):)

[Jeff Knoll]

Ok - I'm obviously very interested in the outcome of that meeting and will be looking forward to any updates. Thanks!

You will hear it here first. BTW I am a big fan of SR1's Blows my mind how fast an affordable they are.

[Rusty5150]

After reading all this stuff it looks like I missed out on a episode of "Real House Wifes of UTV Racing".

I talked with some people about the ISA rules this past weekend and 95% of the feedback was positive. I don't agree with 100% of the rules but I do agree with the direction.

Bottom line is we have a passion, we all want to make it work for everyone. There is no such thing in life. Nothing works for everyone. People push the rules everyday in everything they do.

I will not be chiming back in on this subject.

Production 700 Legal. Stock floors retained, fiberglass Rhino hood, Over the counter suspension kit, Stock 660 motor.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/UTV/DSC_0310.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/rusty51501978/UTV/DSC_0518.jpg

[JoeyD23]

Jeff Knoll - ISA Punching Bag...hahahahaha What does that make me? hahahah

[747ink]

nice car this was my first one that Mike ,Trevor and rusty built Kayla in the back round she won her first quad championship that year .

[07fj]

Does anyone know where I can pick up an old Rhino hood and a decent MC engine?

I think that's all I need.......:cool:

I have an OG stock hood and upper dash piece, someone painted them flat black. maybe 100 bucks

and Rusty, your motor is legal :D

many companies sell bolt on shock towers, jee peeps get a grip already.

as an example, where would the OG Flying Banana fit with a 686 motor or the OG funco with a 720???? Not many cars were safer (even still today).

some cars like this started it all. being true to roots, were cars like this taken into account???? THE Banana still had headlights that worked, stock dash, hood and fenders all from yamaha, so it gets me that peeps are whining about how to do a car, they must think is still has to look top heavy and Dorky like stock, not true IMO.

[tyler]

What would be considered as the "PREMIER" class to be in?
:confused:

[SXS Machine]

What would be considered as the "PREMIER" class to be in?
:confused:

The one where you get a Kawasaki 4, some real suspension made at $10k, $5k of Cage and wheels a piece and put a small block Chev in where the rear seats were. :eek:

[07fj]

anyone on RDC should look at the HDRA UTV rules, 800cc max, no power steering. :eek: one class that is it, but it would exclude some big name racers like Jagged-X for instance.


I addressed this myself, but others should also.

[JoeyD23]

Rog, it should be noted that HDRA is in talks with ISA about adopting the ISA rule book. The same goes for a handful of other recognized organizations. As a matter of fact both Jeff Knoll and Reid Nordin have flown out to the GNCC race TODAY to meet with GNCC directors about adopting. They would not have made this trip if GNCC was not very interested. I wish I could post the other orgs we are talking too but I will wait for the right time. I can tell you that ISA is making some awesome headway!!

[ROTR]

I am thinking on building a car for the KOH and have a question about the Production 850 class.

Will the stock "S" cage pass the 6 point cage requirement?
I am trying to summarize what I need to do in order to meet the requirements.

5 points, aftermarket seat,aluminum roof, non-opening doors with nets, fire extinguisher, colored lights on rear, horn, lowrance GPS.

Is there anything I'm missing? Is the lowarance GPS mandatory?

Thanks.

[Jeff Knoll]

I am thinking on building a car for the KOH and have a question about the Production 850 class.

Will the stock "S" cage pass the 6 point cage requirement?
I am trying to summarize what I need to do in order to meet the requirements.

5 points, aftermarket seat,aluminum roof, non-opening doors with nets, fire extinguisher, colored lights on rear, horn, lowrance GPS.

Is there anything I'm missing? Is the lowarance GPS mandatory?

Thanks.

I believe the stock "RZR S" cage will pass.

A winch is a good idea, but My understanding is they are not requiring it. I can't see how you can do this race without one, and its required on Ultra4 cars.

Wanna Finish KOH? Click here! (http://www.sxsperformance.com/Product/130/Bulldog-3500lbs-UTV-Winch.aspx)

[ROTR]

Thanks for the input. Already have a winch.

Guess I'll start to building. :)

[dezerteryx]

do you guys know when the online application will be up and running getting ready to sign up just want to know before i mail a check.

[Mike L]

I just had this conversation with another member today. It will be a week or two before it is up and running on the site.

[dezerteryx]

I just had this conversation with another member today. It will be a week or two before it is up and running on the site.

cool thanks ill sign up then

[JeepDiva]

:o Sorry for the totally noob questions, but I haven't done any racing before. The opportunity arose to enter KOH (Prod 850 class), and I don't own any of the safety gear yet. I don't know if I'll have the opportunity to race again after this, so while not wanting to cheap out on the gear, I want to keep it somewhat affordable.

I've been looking over the rulebook Sect 10.0 and want to make sure I'm interpretting it correctly before I go buying stuff.

"Suits must cover from the neck to the ankles and to the wrists" <-- does this mean suits must be 1-piece (not a separate jacket & pants)?

"A minimum of a two-layer fire suit, fire resistant gloves and footwear are very highly recommended." <--so I could get by with a 1-layer suit? And I'm not required to have special gloves/footwear (although it would be a good idea)?


Thanks in advance! I'm really excited to make the trip to KOH.

[Jeff Knoll]

:o Sorry for the totally noob questions, but I haven't done any racing before. The opportunity arose to enter KOH (Prod 850 class), and I don't own any of the safety gear yet. I don't know if I'll have the opportunity to race again after this, so while not wanting to cheap out on the gear, I want to keep it somewhat affordable.

I've been looking over the rulebook Sect 10.0 and want to make sure I'm interpretting it correctly before I go buying stuff.

"Suits must cover from the neck to the ankles and to the wrists" <-- does this mean suits must be 1-piece (not a separate jacket & pants)?

"A minimum of a two-layer fire suit, fire resistant gloves and footwear are very highly recommended." <--so I could get by with a 1-layer suit? And I'm not required to have special gloves/footwear (although it would be a good idea)?


Thanks in advance! I'm really excited to make the trip to KOH.


a one piece single layer suit is gonna be your best bet for affordability.
You do not need the gloves and shoes per the rules, but here is my recommendation. The most important thing in a fire is using your hands to get free, and your feet to run like heck away.

I suggest if you want to save money you get a pair of fire proof socks, and you spring for the gloves as well, but if cost is an issue, do not wear a synthetic glove. They melt to your skin. I have had to dig the top of a Mechanix glove out of the top of my hand, its a bummer.

I think you are better off with a leather glove than nothing at that point.

Call Mike at SXS Performance 855 797 7373 and he can discuss affordable options for safety gear with you.

BTW if you are going single layer, do not wear synthetic underwear, like underarmor under your suit. It can be fairly cold at the hammers and its a common mistake to wear that under your suit. The heat of a fire can melt that stuff to your skin under your suit. Stick with cotton.

The same goes for your pit crew, no synthetics at all in the pits especially the people handling the refueling duties. 100% cotton only, thick jeans and heavy cotton shirts are your best bet if you can't afford the fire suits.

It always amazes me to see the really nice looking synthetic pit shirts that are embedded with multiple logos, and see them worn in the pits. That stuff melts.

[66cummins]

Cotton brushes off, and synthetic gets peeled and scrubbed at the burn center.....:eek:

[Team Green]

Not to be a smart ass but from the iconic Bell Helmets ad from the early 80's " Got a $10.00 head get a $10.00 helmet"

[Bajaxp]

Another inexpensive way to add a WHOLE lot of protection is to wear Carbon X under layers. UPR race supply has some pretty big discounts on Bell and Ringers socks, shirts and drawers. Plus it gives you the worlds greatest pick up line...'hey want to see my fireproof underwear?'

[ROTR]

I have a question about the Dec 15th deadline. Is that a hard deadline? I 've got a friend that has some medical bills he needs to take care of and wont know until mid january if he can make it. Will you be taking walk ups on site?

Thanks and BTW, I CANT WAIT !!!

[Darryl89]

I have a question about the Dec 15th deadline. Is that a hard deadline? I 've got a friend that has some medical bills he needs to take care of and wont know until mid january if he can make it. Will you be taking walk ups on site?

Thanks and BTW, I CANT WAIT !!!

I agree, why hold the drawing so far away from the race. That's right before Christmas..wait until the first week of January for the drawing, I bet you would get more entries and 30 days is still enough time to handle any preplanning for final numbers...

[Mike L]

I have a question about the Dec 15th deadline. Is that a hard deadline? I 've got a friend that has some medical bills he needs to take care of and wont know until mid january if he can make it. Will you be taking walk ups on site?

Thanks and BTW, I CANT WAIT !!!

You will be able to register after the Dec 15th deadline. All entries after the 15th will be subject to a $100 late registration fee.

[ROTR]

Thanks Mike!

[Jeff Knoll]

I agree, why hold the drawing so far away from the race. That's right before Christmas..wait until the first week of January for the drawing, I bet you would get more entries and 30 days is still enough time to handle any preplanning for final numbers...


I am not speaking for KOH but I can share some insight as to why so early. Having done the logistics for this race the last 4 years, it is a monumental task to organized everything. The BLM requires a lot of stuff I will not bore you with as does the Insurance company. Walk up registration is a major PITA, as the BLM needs to know how many are racing weeks before the event, and if you go over and they audit you have race day issues.

On top of that you have trackers this year to deal with. In the past for the main race this is a whole process in itself.
Lets not forget race program (hopefully the UTV guys can get some love)
Pit assignments
a massive amount of liability paperwork for ever single person races and pitting for each team.
And the list goes on.

Last year I had two full time employees working almost exclusively on registration for the KOH main race, the LCQ, and the UTV race and it took them almost the entire month of January to get it organized. This year KOH added two more races to the mix.


It may seem excessive to ask for a pre registration almost two months in advance, but because this race is on Public property, and takes place for an entire week it is really cutting it close.


Hope that helps clear that up from an historic perspective.

[Darryl89]

I am not speaking for KOH but I can share some insight as to why so early. Having done the logistics for this race the last 4 years, it is a monumental task to organized everything. The BLM requires a lot of stuff I will not bore you with as does the Insurance company. Walk up registration is a major PITA, as the BLM needs to know how many are racing weeks before the event, and if you go over and they audit you have race day issues.

On top of that you have trackers this year to deal with. In the past for the main race this is a whole process in itself.
Lets not forget race program (hopefully the UTV guys can get some love)
Pit assignments
a massive amount of liability paperwork for ever single person races and pitting for each team.
And the list goes on.

Last year I had two full time employees working almost exclusively on registration for the KOH main race, the LCQ, and the UTV race and it took them almost the entire month of January to get it organized. This year KOH added two more races to the mix.


It may seem excessive to ask for a pre registration almost two months in advance, but because this race is on Public property, and takes place for an entire week it is really cutting it close.


Hope that helps clear that up from an historic perspective.

I can appreciate that, but I wasn't talking about walk up registration. I was talking about first week or so of January, just to get us past Christmas.
No biggie, just thought it would up the registrants. That is one thing that attracts racers is ease of access in registration and such. I do applaud them having online payment available, it's much easier for me to jump online during a slow moment at work (like right now) or late at night after I'm done at work and around the house and then pay and register.
Damn, maybe I need to find a wife just so I could have someone else take care of the house, raise the kids and such while I run to the post office and then go play......on second thought, nah...

[megonzo]

I am not speaking for KOH but I can share some insight as to why so early. Having done the logistics for this race the last 4 years, it is a monumental task to organized everything. The BLM requires a lot of stuff I will not bore you with as does the Insurance company. Walk up registration is a major PITA, as the BLM needs to know how many are racing weeks before the event, and if you go over and they audit you have race day issues.

On top of that you have trackers this year to deal with. In the past for the main race this is a whole process in itself.
Lets not forget race program (hopefully the UTV guys can get some love)
Pit assignments
a massive amount of liability paperwork for ever single person races and pitting for each team.
And the list goes on.

Last year I had two full time employees working almost exclusively on registration for the KOH main race, the LCQ, and the UTV race and it took them almost the entire month of January to get it organized. This year KOH added two more races to the mix.


It may seem excessive to ask for a pre registration almost two months in advance, but because this race is on Public property, and takes place for an entire week it is really cutting it close.


Hope that helps clear that up from an historic perspective.

KOH + ISA = ISA 'Baptism by fire'

Jeff, I wish that there was something that I could do to help you out. If I can't get a co-driver next year, I would like to volunteer now. mmmkay?

You guys have a lot going on for the UTV racing family, and we really do appreciate it.

Jo

[megonzo]

I can appreciate that, but I wasn't talking about walk up registration. I was talking about first week or so of January, just to get us past Christmas.
No biggie, just thought it would up the registrants. That is one thing that attracts racers is ease of access in registration and such. I do applaud them having online payment available, it's much easier for me to jump online during a slow moment at work (like right now) or late at night after I'm done at work and around the house and then pay and register.
Damn, maybe I need to find a wife just so I could have someone else take care of the house, raise the kids and such while I run to the post office and then go play......on second thought, nah...HA HA HA You are spot on. <grin> As the wife, and stupidvisor incharge of forms for three teams.....well, all I can do is chuckle. I do have a great husband, that is taking the forms to USPS, and mailing everything Registered Return Receipt today. ;)


And my car is still not built. HAHAHAHAHA....hopefully before the 9th when we visit Means. :D

[Jeff Knoll]

KOH + ISA = ISA 'Baptism by fire'

Jeff, I wish that there was something that I could do to help you out. If I can't get a co-driver next year, I would like to volunteer now. mmmkay?

You guys have a lot going on for the UTV racing family, and we really do appreciate it.

Jo

I bet you can find a top notch Co-dog with a simple request. Not a bunch of people who have tried this crazy race and know what it takes.:D

[megonzo]

I bet you can find a top notch Co-dog with a simple request. Not a bunch of people who have tried this crazy race and know what it takes.:D

:) 2013 the year I was refering to ....this year (2012) I have a great slate of co-drivers. I'm hoping that I can do the whole loop this time. :D 2013 I'll be 60. ;)

[FabMan]

ISA directors,
I would like to say a few things about these rules. This is not a personal attack on anyone, I know none of you and you don't know me.

1. The more rules the less racers will get involved. The rules have to cover the bases but not be overwhelming.

2. Max. 3 classes. stock, modified and pro. Stock class should not be a stock machine. It should at least be required to have LT suspension and aftermarket exhaust. A stock machine can stay at home and give the kids rides in the yard. These are race cars right? If a guy has an old stock rhino and wants to race, I would say to him "well son, there are 1000 cc stock utv's on the market today that you will be racing against and your not going to be competitive". If he likes racing enough and sticks around, he will sell that machine and go buy the latest and greatest unit. If I was racing a modified stock car and had a 1981 chassis with a junk yard motor and 2 year old tires "I AM NOT GOING TO WIN" simple as that. You want to race? want to win? You have to spend money and have the best of the best that is allowed in your class, that's all there is to it!

3. I can see just about every guy that has a present utv with any mods worth listing, thrown to the dogs and into the unlimited 4 class. That is f'n nuts! With rules like that you are going to do nothing but run racers the other way when they see a sanctioning body running ISA rules. I can guarantee you that, I know I will.
A frickin' front shock tower mod and you are an unlimited? that's a "modified class car. Unlimited my a$$.

4. All this "must run stock manufacturer hood and floor boards" stuff is nothing but to try to get the manufacturers involved by the recognition of the machines by body style hoping people will see the machines as "factory". SCREW THEM! What the hell have they done for us lately? Nothing to very little! Hell, we buy these over priced machines from them and strip em' down to bare bones and add or make parts to make them even a "decent" offroad machine. If you make a race series that draws racers and spectators on a large scale, they will want you more than you will want them. That's how you will get them involved.

5. The one that really gets me is the "OFF THE SHELF" stuff with everything that is not stock on these machines. So you are telling me that if someone built their own suspension or had Joe Blow make it and it "IS" in dimension/material specs. with the rule book and any "OFF THE SHELF" suspension kit, it is illegal? are you f'n sh#ting me? Who in the F gives a sh%t who made it if it is in specs.? who is on the board of this organization, the aftermarket manufacturers? IF A PART IS IN DIMENSION/MATERIAL SPECS. WITH THE RULE BOOK, IT IS IN SPECS, I DON"T GIVE A F%CK IF THE TOOTH FAIRY MADE THE MOTHER F*CKERS! That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read in a race series rule book, EVER!

All I know is I will never mention the name of this organization to any promoter at any event I ever attend in the Midwest in hopes that they are never adopted out here. HEAVEN HELP US!

[JoeyD23]

ISA directors,
I would like to say a few things about these rules. This is not a personal attack on anyone, I know none of you and you don't know me.

1. The more rules the less racers will get involved. The rules have to cover the bases but not be overwhelming.

2. Max. 3 classes. stock, modified and pro. Stock class should not be a stock machine. It should at least be required to have LT suspension and aftermarket exhaust. A stock machine can stay at home and give the kids rides in the yard. These are race cars right? If a guy has an old stock rhino and wants to race, I would say to him "well son, there are 1000 cc stock utv's on the market today that you will be racing against and your not going to be competitive". If he likes racing enough and sticks around, he will sell that machine and go buy the latest and greatest unit. If I was racing a modified stock car and had a 1981 chassis with a junk yard motor and 2 year old tires "I AM NOT GOING TO WIN" simple as that. You want to race? want to win? You have to spend money and have the best of the best that is allowed in your class, that's all there is to it!

First off...the classes were set as such that an org could adopt whatever classes they want...they don't have to have all the classes. If all they want is 3 classes then adopt 3 classes. But if you are saying that stock should have a LT they why would it be called stock? Also, why would you not break it up against CC's?? Isn't that how almost every form of power-sports racing is done?

3. I can see just about every guy that has a present utv with any mods worth listing, thrown to the dogs and into the unlimited 4 class. That is f'n nuts! With rules like that you are going to do nothing but run racers the other way when they see a sanctioning body running ISA rules. I can guarantee you that, I know I will.
A frickin' front shock tower mod and you are an unlimited? that's a "modified class car. Unlimited my a$$.

You are wrong....MAJORITY of the guys racing in WORCS fall right into the class they are currently racing in. (exception is most need to add safety components) Same would go for GNCC. LOORRS cars fall into Unlimited 4 & 2 all day without problem and desert guys, well desert guys are a class all to their own. A class the ISA has yet to fully address today.

As for the shock tower mod. The idea is to keep cars stock. Some beefed up cars will be hurt by these rules, but they rules were built with the future in mind. There will be a little sacrifice. Thats the nature of the beast.

4. All this "must run stock manufacturer hood and floor boards" stuff is nothing but to try to get the manufacturers involved by the recognition of the machines by body style hoping people will see the machines as "factory". SCREW THEM! What the hell have they done for us lately? Nothing to very little! Hell, we buy these over priced machines from them and strip em' down to bare bones and add or make parts to make them even a "decent" offroad machine. If you make a race series that draws racers and spectators on a large scale, they will want you more than you will want them. That's how you will get them involved.

uhhhhhhhh.....I don't even know how to respond to this....Do you not want Manufacturers to EVER be involved?

5. The one that really gets me is the "OFF THE SHELF" stuff with everything that is not stock on these machines. So you are telling me that if someone built their own suspension or had Joe Blow make it and it "IS" in dimension/material specs. with the rule book and any "OFF THE SHELF" suspension kit, it is illegal? are you f'n sh#ting me? Who in the F gives a sh%t who made it if it is in specs.? who is on the board of this organization, the aftermarket manufacturers? IF A PART IS IN DIMENSION/MATERIAL SPECS. WITH THE RULE BOOK, IT IS IN SPECS, I DON"T GIVE A F%CK IF THE TOOTH FAIRY MADE THE MOTHER F*CKERS! That has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read in a race series rule book, EVER!

dude....easy, if you built something and I ask you could you do it again if I paid you, what would your answer be? lol Come on....

All I know is I will never mention the name of this organization to any promoter at any event I ever attend in the Midwest in hopes that they are never adopted out here. HEAVEN HELP US!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. So if someone in the midwest was starting a race organization who would you refer to them to help them with launching a series or set of classes with UTV's? I mean any org can go rip off another org's rule book, but who would be there to HELP them in getting their UTV classes off the ground and support them by answering questions??? Who???


Not everyone is gonna dig the ISA, we get that. But we had to get the ball rolling so that everyone could get involved and help it evolve.