All UTV's So you want to understand shocks & coils?

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
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I was looking something up regarding shocks & coils and found an old thread with TONS of info on shocks & coils. I figured a few on here might appreciate the articles and find something to help you out.

Bill Ansell wrote both part 1 & part 2. Part 3 was never written as Bill parted ways with the owners of Pirate. Bummer, but the first two parts will keep you busy!

Part 1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/

Part 2
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_2/
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
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Oh here is what got me looking this up. In all my years I have never seen a coil slider break. Wear out yes, but never shatter like this. This was on the front of my XP4 while riding at Superstition Mtn. I spoke with Jason & Brain at Walker Evans and they too have never seen this happen before. We are guessing it was just a flukey deal or possibly a bad slider? I ordered 2 front sliders and got them the next day, so I will be pulling both front shocks and changing out both fronts and looking close at the other one to see if it shows any damage or flaws.

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Blue Coyote

Member
Jul 31, 2009
254
19
18
Eugene OR
www.NWOffroad.net
Look at photo 1 - the slider has gotten past the cross over rings. Had this happen on Fox / Cognito LT on our Teryx. It appears that the ID of the slider is a bit big, allowing it past the cross overs, or the cross overs are too small.
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
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Pleasant Grove, UT
Those are both great articles. I remember reading them awhile ago. One of the things that I like most is that he talks about suspension frequency. Talking about spring rates means absolutely nothing if you don't consider corner weight, mechanical ratios, and shock mounting angles. The funny thing is that suspension frequency is a little understood fundemental that let's you compare one car to the next with out knowing all the variables. You could easily take suspension frequency of a dialed car that you like how it rides and let's you back it out to get the spring rate for a different car and have very similar ride quality. For example, Reid could take the suspension frequency of the monster mav and choose springs for their new Polaris build that would the same frequency and it would ride almost the same outside of some shock tuning.

It is so unused in the offroad world that most people that know a great deal about suspension have no concept of what it means. In fact, in the quest to find a starting point to select springs for our race build I asked several shock experts what would be a good starting point for our suspension frequency. Without fail I was told that all the race Polaris that they had tuned lately used around a spring rate of x. That means nothing to me as our corner weights of our car could be a couple hundred pounds different, our suspension has motion ratios that are not even close to the factory and even more different than all the long travel kits that use a stock length shock.

I bet if you took the entire 1900 class you would have a frequency spread of 10% but spring rates could still very by 60-70% due to different designs.
 

valco

Member
Apr 30, 2009
59
6
8
Todd, sorry to hear about your car, hopefully it didn't ruin your entire weekend.

I'm curious on how this happened. Did you take a big hit on the front end or was this just normal cruising around?
 

dmcmark

Active Member
Apr 20, 2012
268
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28
Had them fail on our desert cars, not like that though. Usually see them start to take a shape at the base between the two springs and crack there. Being injection molded glass filled nylon they are pretty consistent, (but they are a wear item.). I agree that it took a beating and got over the crossovers and it just couldn't take it any more. Your running a pretty heavy secondary, Not sure what you have for a main, but it looks to me that the secondary is doing all of the work. The 7" spring your using has a collapsed length of 4.46". Might want to try backing your crossovers all the way off or remove them completely.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
970
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Todd, sorry to hear about your car, hopefully it didn't ruin your entire weekend.

I'm curious on how this happened. Did you take a big hit on the front end or was this just normal cruising around?
Yeah it sort of killed the trip, but the good news is it was just a slider, when it broke you could hear it over the engine with a helmet on. I thought an a-arm or ball joint broke.

Nope not running hard at all and that is what is so weird about it. I was running around Superstition Mtn with my wife & 5 year old daughter in the car, in a group of 4 RZR's. We came around a dune and the XP1k leading hit a transition which bounced him onto 2 wheels, but nothing crazy. Then I hit the same off camber transition and maybe had 5-6 inches of air under the left tires. It was a failry steep transition. I expected to use all the travel in compression from going up the bump, after seeing the XP1K infront of me. When it landed, thats when I heard the loud pop. Im guessing we were going around 20-25 mph if that. You would have thought by looking at the slider that I flew through the air and landed one the left front wheel or something crazy.

I spoke with the guys at Walker Evans and showed them several pictures. None of them have seen a slider break like that. These are the same sliders JaggedX and Holtz are using on their race cars. I asked as I wanted to make sure I had the good stuff and not some cheaper version.

I asked about preload, crossover settings and all the numbers I gave them they felt were fine. I was thinking that maybe I was coil binding the main spring, but using the settings I gave him, plus these are the springs they put on it, they said no way I was coil binding. So at this point we have considered it just a fluke and just a bad slider. Bummer part is they did not cut me a break on parts or shipping, but o'well! I'm replacing both front shock sliders. The other looks just fine after pulling it off.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
970
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Had them fail on our desert cars, not like that though. Usually see them start to take a shape at the base between the two springs and crack there. Being injection molded glass filled nylon they are pretty consistent, (but they are a wear item.). I agree that it took a beating and got over the crossovers and it just couldn't take it any more. Your running a pretty heavy secondary, Not sure what you have for a main, but it looks to me that the secondary is doing all of the work. The 7" spring your using has a collapsed length of 4.46". Might want to try backing your crossovers all the way off or remove them completely.
Yeah I've seen sliders wear, just never shatter. The reason it went over the crossover rings was because it split. Those are just pieces that are stuck between the spring & crossover nuts. At fist glance I too thought it got pushed over the crossovers and then broke, but after looking closer and taking it all apart, it cracked and then the coller shattered into 4 pieces. Some of the pieces just got wedged between the crossover nuts & springs.

Yeah it looks like it took a beating but in reality I don't hammer on this car and am not a jumping kinda guy. I will push it through the whoops pretty good, but not with the my wife. & daughter as I get yelled at in the intercom. They are my restrictor plate!!! LOL!

Regarding the front springs the upper is a 7" 325 over a 10" 350. This is the spring rate Walker set it up with. Remember the spring rate is devided when the two springs are working before the crossovers stop the upper spring. The spring rate when both springs are working together is 168.5 lbs. When the upper is stopped you are then working off the 350lbs lower only. The 2 seat cars get a 300 over 350 I believe.

This is also in conjunction with Walkers needle valve internals. Overall the cars is pretty soft, you can push down on the hood and compress the ride hight at least 2 inches. Basically you can push it down till you pretty much hit the crossover nuts. At ride hight i have right around 3/4 inch between the slider & crossover. With the needles the valving is pretty light allowing it to work over the chatter and small stuff and when the needle kicks in it starts to close off the valving.

Biggest issue I see with these cars and why you need such heavy springs is the poor geometry Polaris has put in the front of these cars. The front shocks are so laid down that you have to spring the crap out of them. My old beam prerunner had lighter front springs then this RZR. I was told on the race RZR's like Holtz & Jagged where they stand the shocks up more and relocate the upper shock mounts they can run springs in the 175 upper & 225 lower range. To me that is closer to what I expected. But after measuring as seeing the degrees these shocks are at compared to the arms it no wonder you need such heavy springs.

One of the other cars in our group is a 800 RZR4 and he put the RacerTech springs on his stock Fox Poduim shocks. It made a decent improvement on his car. The lower spring is a 300, which on their spring concept is the lighter spring and their magic secret sauce upper spring is suppose to be their heavier spring. They dont tell you the spring rate on that coil. So even on the RZRS 800's they run a pretty stiff spring.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
970
310
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Buy shock sliders from All German Motorsports. Best out there!
Your right and I'd love too! But at $100-120 ea, it's a little hard to spend the money for sliders on a "play car". In theory I should never wear out a coil slider on the XP4.
 

dmcmark

Active Member
Apr 20, 2012
268
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28
It is possible to run softer springs. By your description you get into the crossover pretty easy and quickly. If that's the case then could it be possible that the slider is constantly making contact with the crossovers and putting undue stress on them. The longer side of the slider is inherently weaker, If you have room on the body of the shock you could flip the slider over which should give you more adjustment and strength when it contacts the crossovers.
 

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