Fight Tooth and Nail

Del Albright

New Member
Mar 9, 2015
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www.sharetrails.org
“Fight Tooth and Nail” tells the tale for me and a lot of other folks in the land use, off-road, backcountry world.


Kurt Schneider, Land Use Editor for CRAWL Magazine won a caption contest hosted by Krawlzone TV with this cool saying and it is worth sharing and passing around. KrawlzoneTV (http://www.krawlzone.tv/) is fully on our land use team and I hope you’ll pay them a visit and support their work as well.


I’m a full time Sharetrails/BRC guy, but I also fully and completely support my State Association. I hope you will do the same with this – encourage folks to join and support everything they can afford to, starting with national and regional group along with State and local clubs/associations. The more the merrier.






Del
 
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It'sYourLegacy

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Mar 29, 2015
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There were a number of us many years ago who fought for the "share trail" concept.

We gave up after at least 3 facts were made abundantly clear to us in no uncertain terms:

1) There was absolutely no support for "shared anything" (finally open up entire trail systems to parallel use/pay to play maintenance) east of the Rockies...

2) We couldn't get past the intentionally slammed shut/closed door/no questions allowed attitude of gray-haired offroad NGOs and their take-a-bureaucrat-to lunch-keep-the-never-ending-NGO-career-gig-going model...

3) The manufacturers would drop you and your 'mutually beneficial 'cause' like a hot potato if somebody who didn't necessarily believe in the "shared trails" concept wanted to keep things just the way that they were (forever).

The problem became that most of these guys (all over the nation) tended to meet with their wives or girlfriends and have one heck of a time someplace 'nice' on a regular basis...which cemented the "never speak ill of a fellow offroader" nonsense . This unwritten 'code' also assured that we would all never unite under one roof (which was just fine with their bloated bureaucrat lunch buddies who feared just that) and never achieved the numbers that we all needed to get anywhere TOGETHER.

If we all had ever truly united and in fact consolidated behind the manufacturers?
Half of these NGO 'careers' would have been over the day that Yamaha put its first Rhino on the showroom floor... as a true 'riding' (now also 'ride-in') community would have necessarily taken shape at that time.

We have been kept separate for decades so that everybody could keep their traditional 20th century little piece of the pie...and so that nobody was made to feel 'uncomfortable' when it came time to 'party and ride' each and every year. I respect the guys and gals who started these NGOs and built/maintained these brand new trails for the only machines available at that time.

Since then, (the majority of; not all) offroad leadership has paralleled our senior citizen's attitude of late:
Don't teach the younger people as to how we got in this mess and keep asking for more before anybody figures out that nobody is willing to sacrifice and that nothing is (or ever has been) free/'simple as that'.
 

Todd Ockert

Member
Feb 11, 2015
33
2
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55
Hanford, Ca
www.sharetrails.org
ItsYourLegacy

I have seen the mentality that you mention previously.
I own a Jeep and years ago, people did not want to share the trails, period.
Where I recreate, that mentality has changed.
Why?
I think because so many people now own a SxS or ATV and understand both sides of the argument.
As the President of BRC, I encourage everyone to join our organization, and we will fight for everyone.
Don Amador, our Western Representative has a SxS, a Dirt Bike and a 4x4.
He does not care what group or type of vehicle you recreate with, he is out there fighting for the access.

I have only been doing land use about 10 years as of now, and consider myself fortunate to be the president of BRC. I am probably one of the youngest leaders of all the national groups, and don't bring in the mentality of separate trails for different users. I advocate shared use on all trails. Are we able to take all the single track trails and turn them into ATV, SxS or 4x4 trails? No, just not going to happen. I would not support that.
All new trails built and maintained should be done for the vehicle that they were designed for and down.

Todd
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
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ItsYourLegacy
I have seen the mentality that you mention previously.
I own a Jeep and years ago, people did not want to share the trails, period.
Where I recreate, that mentality has changed.
Why?
I think because so many people now own a SxS or ATV and understand both sides of the argument.
Being the first person in offroad leadership to simply acknowledge a crippling divide that has destroyed our ability to build out multi-use cooperatively maintained trail systems for at least 50 years (or better) is frankly pretty easily said.
Simply "understanding both sides of the argument" didn't build multi-use trails then (to contrary belief we all "understood" the divide and conquer game being played amongst all of us) and now that all of the money to build anything is effectively GONE (and only career figureheads remain) mere feel good words and bumper stickers are just as cheap as they were then. Those of us who might back much younger leadership 'now' know full well that not enough of those "fighting multi-use tooth and nail" back then have ever left this earth or certainly ever 'found religion' concerning our differences. Your next statement proves this...
[/QUOTE]

"...As the President of BRC.. I am probably one of the youngest leaders of all the national groups, and don't bring in the mentality of separate trails for different users. I advocate shared use on all trails. Are we able to take all the single track trails and turn them into ATV, SxS or 4x4 trails? No, just not going to happen. I would not support that.
All new trails built and maintained should be done for the vehicle that they were designed for and down.
Todd..."
Sorry, Todd..but you're talking to those a lot older than you who know these guys (well) and have dealt with them personally for many years. We're very familiar with the "you just want to destroy a trail that could never be anything but single track" and "there's plenty of trails for everybody and always will be" 1960's mentality that your gray haired mentors have b.s.(ed) us with for decades. The next thing we'll hear is "who built the trails in the first place?'..'I've never seen you at the trailhead on maintenance day!".."pay to play is impossible!" (the kids today used to big government paying for everything absolutely love that one) or "motorcyclists are 'special' .."(boy are they ever!) as compared to everybody else failing through nonexistent offroad leadership to squeeze on to ever shrinking public lands.

Anybody wanting to research the failure of offroad leadership since the middle of the last century need only look at how the 50" rule was (intentionally) allowed to split and effectively shatter the burgeoning/exploding off road community while still maintaining non-profit careers (and legal fees) for those effectively using it for their own ends. The divide and conquer strategy (along with the pat-each-other-on-the-back-let's all-go-to-lunch nationwide lobbying reality) is government's most effective weapon against the people and this has never changed with current or past leadership.

Young people on this board simply don't know the past (it's never been explained to them for obvious good reasons) and as a result of such are sadly doomed to repeat the future.
 

It'sYourLegacy

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Mar 29, 2015
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Are we able to take all the single track trails and turn them into ATV, SxS or 4x4 trails? No, just not going to happen. I would not support that.
All new trails built and maintained should be done for the vehicle that they were designed for and down.
Todd

How big of you guys!
You'll 'fight' for building/maintaining 'brand new' trails (only)...as they would be funded/approved to be built (anyways) in the first place! How about bucking the Feds (instead of taking them to lunch) and turning OUR 50" trails in to properly maintained multi-use legacies? You want us to listen to and legacy fund your gray-haired 'mentors' who can't even ride a motorcycle any more. The same selfish bastard single trackers who've been telling US for decades that:
"We rode
the daylight out of that beautiful country when we were young...and we're (now) spending the rest of our lives making sure that our grandchildren (and theirs) never do...unless they can somehow pick up a bike and negotiate it with another rider (for safety) right behind

These old gray haired bastards bankrupt the entire country (trillions in debt)...making certain that new trails will NEVER be built without extreme pay-to-play measures (that they never payed and never would)..and then sit back with their non-profit paid 401Ks telling US that we'll never run down "THEIR" single track just as long as they have a breath in them.

Again, we know who these guys are and you do as well.
They played the same game that most people their age are playing today while
desperately convincing younger people to emulate it.

"The country is flat broke and on the ropes so get (keep) yours and never look back..." (oh yeah, "and promise that the 'next' trail system will 'finally' be multi-use and what our kids have wanted them to be for almost 40 years ..").

"Fighting tooth and nail" all right...to keep this community forever
divided and continually fighting (amongst ourselves) for whatever little land that we have left to ride.

 
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Todd Ockert

Member
Feb 11, 2015
33
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Hanford, Ca
www.sharetrails.org
I can't fix the past errors of the land use group leaders.
I can and will work to ensure those errors don't happen in the current and future discussions.

ItsYourLegacy, you speak like I know who the gray haired folks are who locked out those that were not like minded as yourself!
I don't know them.
You have identified the problem, now give me some good solutions to help resolve the errors of past!

Del and I come here to try and give good information for the users of UTV Underground and not get bashed for what previous leaders have done!

I will continue to work to ensure that we have shared use of trails.

Todd
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
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I can't fix the past errors of the land use group leaders.
I can and will work to ensure those errors don't happen in the current and future discussions.

ItsYourLegacy, you speak like I know who the gray haired folks are who locked out those that were not like minded as yourself!
I don't know them.
You have identified the problem, now give me some good solutions to help resolve the errors of past!

Del and I come here to try and give good information for the users of UTV Underground and not get bashed for what previous leaders have done!

I will continue to work to ensure that we have shared use of trails.

Todd
If you don't know them...then ask Del (he certainly does).
I don't have any problem bringing forward even more of the solutions already offered.
What Del's generation (and mine) have always had a problem with? (see this thread)...simply acknowledging that there was ever a problem in the first place.

I'll make a list of suggestions.
In the meantime, why don't you ask Dell or even any member of the AMA that you obviously run in to on a regular basis what the "errors of the past" just might be (in their opinion).

They've already got you believing that not a mile of single track will ever be turned back to its rightful owners (all of us)...yet if I was you? (knowing them)...saying anything contrary (to anything that the gray beards believe in) wouldn't necessarily be a good career move.

We're listening...let's hear THEIR side of the story...(or the story these young people were never told).
 
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It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
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You have identified the problem, now give me some good solutions to help resolve the errors of past! Todd
#1...Educate
Produce a comprehensive study of what we have, what we have lost and why. To blame the Sierra Club or progressive policies for everything is ridiculous. We lost because we gave no other alternative to their view of their world other than "we want to" or "you must let us do it". Young people today have no idea as to where they are going or exactly what they can accomplish as they have no idea whatsoever where offloading has been. Even sadder is their ignorance of what it can and should be. Don't leave out the ugly parts and explain why old farts like myself have no business lying down (now) given what we were blessed to ride. Finally explain the "pit one against the other so that we all make a living" non-profit model that has failed our children so badly. Show kids how government bureaucrats favor 'low impact' and 'minority' groups over all others to keep the most machines possible off of public lands. In 2 words?...BE HONEST with those who would like to help you if the barn was indeed cleaned out (for good).

#2...Reward groups who clean out their own barn.
Attack the us-against-them hate (vs ignore it) that has been exhibited very openly in off-road communities. Stand behind those who criticize groups for supporting organizations who ignore helmet safety while preaching offroad helmet safety at the same time. Tread lightly hasn't become a reality everywhere for one simple reason: those who haven't been aren't necessarily afraid of those who do. Partnerships with law enforcement in most clubs is non-existant. Highlight those who take unpopular stands where the most problems are occurring and publicize why they are taking the chances that they take. We need examples for our kids not worn out slogans and bumper stickers.

3...(Finally) Expose those in federal and state government who are now and always have been blocking our children's outdoor future legacies by looking out for their own careers vs the public good. Explain exactly how initiatives or defenses of land closures fail, exactly who is involved at each turn of the story and what lessons have been learned after each success or failure. This community has always received half-baked reasoning for failures or carefully crafted blow-by-blows designed to provide cover for those collecting a career out of slowly destroying the offroad system in this country. They are no different than the intentional dividers in our own community and need to be stopped or at the very least recognized by our children for who they are and/or were before paradise was lost.

...and that's just a start...
 
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It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
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...(and the crickets chirped).

We never went anywhere with this sport (and I'll include atvs here as well) due to the fact that any discussion beyond simply loading up, having a good time and expecting others to handle the philosophical arguments/'dirty work' has been nonexistent for decades now.

Groups such as LaFamilia (if I'm observing correctly), the BRC and I'm certain a few others are the backbone of what you guys and gals have been blessed to do with these machines (now at least) out in the west.

Has everything degraded to the point where young people are taking their cue from those in my generation?

"..Ride it all until they close it down...screw the kids who will never ride what we did...and pray that there's at least one trail left to go down when my (granfathered-in-paid-for) diaper changer is doing the driving.."

Generations are judged (as they were in colonial days) by the conversations that they keep.

I would offer that this failure to even so much as speak spans multiple offroad generations and is but a sad (or sickening) reflection on what we all do for fun (I quit believing that 99% of us had any interest in legacies being an integral or moral portion of our basic educational/environmental responsibility a long time ago).

For heavens sakes, if you believe in the BRC 110%...DEFEND THEM!!!

We've obviously gotten to the point where people care so little?...that they don't even have an opinion on the very issues affecting them the most (perhaps Dell should have made it a 'giveaway' post with participation trophies to stir interest).

(set loose the crickets again)...
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
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There is no having a discussion with you. It's you telling everyone how it is.
...I can only imagine my generation (when we were young) 'pouting' to members of the greatest generation or even those that followed (we're talking Americans who had lived/fought through both World Wars, the worst of modern warfare afterwards, Depressions, discrimination, abject poverty, etc.) that:
"..you're telling everyone how it is..and we don't like it!..." (stomping our feet).

Start preparing yourself for more BLM and trail closures across the nation.
We simply don't deserve the right to ride and this thread proves it.
 

Todd Ockert

Member
Feb 11, 2015
33
2
8
55
Hanford, Ca
www.sharetrails.org
ItsYourLegacy

I am working on trying to gather some of the info that you asked.
Trying to figure out and list what we have lost is a very daunting task.
You have been around longer than me in this fight to keep lands open, and you might have a better list than me, and how much we have lost over the years.
If you wanted to include everything that is a National Park, Wilderness, Monument, then that list is pretty easy.

I can tell you who have not been OHV Friendly in the past:
Boxer, Feinstein to name two from my home state.
Reid from Nevada is not OHV friendly.

There is a who's who list of those in Washington DC that dislike us.
If you want a list from someone who may have it already, that would be Don Amador at his TrailPac.

As a 501.c.3, at BlueRibbon Coalition, we have to be careful about how we put this information out also.
We are not allowed to promote one candidate over another and so we have shied away from a list like this because of the potential legal implications.
I am not against a list like this, but it is one that BRC should not be putting together because of the legal implications.
 

Todd Ockert

Member
Feb 11, 2015
33
2
8
55
Hanford, Ca
www.sharetrails.org
For heavens sakes, if you believe in the BRC 110%...DEFEND THEM!!!

.
At BRC we do work with everyone.

If you think trails are forever closed once they are closed, has been proven wrong.
We have worked with a group in Idaho to reopen an area that had single track on it.
In Montana, trail 38 was reopened after the Forest Service closed it without following their process.

Here in the Sierra National Forest, we have worked to reopen trails, and worked to open new trails. This has been a long process and started when they implemented their travel management plans and closed some trails that were not on their maps. It takes working with them in a collaborative way that helps them and the users. Some of them use these trails to recreate also and want to work with all the user groups to ensure that they have a good experience in the forest.
This is happening across the nation with different groups.

It is a long process, and the groups have to be willing to work with the agency to get this process done.
I have a Jeep, and don't understand the fight of the motorcycle, ATV, MTB and SxS groups as much, but am learning.

People have to be willing to work with the land managers in a collaborative way to ensure that all users are represented in the forest.

Todd
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
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ItsYourLegacy
I am working on trying to gather some of the info that you asked.
Trying to figure out and list what we have lost is a very daunting task.
You have been around longer than me in this fight to keep lands open, and you might have a better list than me, and how much we have lost over the years.
If you wanted to include everything that is a National Park, Wilderness, Monument, then that list is pretty easy...."
I think listing what we have lost is great...just as long as my suggestion isn't used as anything but yet another window dressed 501c3 marketing tool ("look at this!") list and nothing else. You know as well as I (which is 'why' I highlighted the 'why') that the actual story behind each fight is a thousand more times important than simply the result for our children's future educational benefit. The gray-hairs in these offroad non-profits have been using this 'shiny object' (bumper stickers with cute slogans, graphics) strategy for decades now. The internet has afforded them the opportunity to tell every single land loss story in detail complete with villains and heroes. We have begged them here at the local level to become involved where it really matters when they LOSE time after time in regards to multi-use issues. They've been blatantly arrogant for decades now in this regard. They don't control these bureaucratic carers...we do. If telling the true story of how we continually lose instead of win threatens a non-profit's designation? Then it's time to rethink how said organization is organized.


"...I can tell you who have not been OHV Friendly in the past:
Boxer, Feinstein to name two from my home state.
Reid from Nevada is not OHV friendly. There is a who's who list of those in Washington DC that dislike us.
If you want a list from someone who may have it already, that would be Don Amador at his TrailPac..."

I think you misunderstand us. We aren't looking for the story of how someone voted or what trail was closed for the past 50 years. We're looking for the guy who wants you to buy him lunch or get him out of work for the day. We're asking to be let in on the conversation with our employees. The people making these decisions and blocking properly maintained access (sorry, but that means pay-to-play in the 21st century) aren't elected. They are easily flustered when challenged arrogant individuals who needed to be confronted decades ago.
The old fart offroad leaders on cruise control presently forcing young leaders such as yourself to do the heavy lifting were these bureaucrat's lunch, dinner and beautifully sited convention partners in the 'golden age' of you-rub-my-back-I'll-rub-yours era (now) quickly coming to an end. They want you to play the same game and I'm hear to tell you (as I believe Trump would offer) that these old goats have literally been making a career out of losing and need to be fired.

"...As a 501.c.3, at BlueRibbon Coalition, we have to be careful about how we put this information out also.
We are not allowed to promote one candidate over another and so we have shied away from a list like this because of the potential legal implications. I am not against a list like this, but it is one that BRC should not be putting together because of the legal implications...."

Again, this isn't about candidates. It's about back room deals to keep just as many of us off of public lands as possible. Constantly losing is one thing and yes, we understand the enemy. Not going after that enemy with a vengeance and/or training our young people to do the same using these losses as easy to understand examples is the inexcusable part.

We're tired of bringing the problem to you guys in detail and having it thrown back at us if we were unable to grasp it in the first place. Give us the bureaucrats that have been leading you guys along like little pets as our land use rights were trampled and we'll take it from there. We know how to hire/take advice from attorneys and even more importantly run the nasty political campaigns needed to actually move the ball down the field (finally).

Bumper stickers don't scare the crap out of career bureaucrats...pitchforks and lanterns do.
 
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It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
At BRC we do work with everyone.

If you think trails are forever closed once they are closed, has been proven wrong.
We have worked with a group in Idaho to reopen an area that had single track on it.
In Montana, trail 38 was reopened after the Forest Service closed it without following their process.

Here in the Sierra National Forest, we have worked to reopen trails, and worked to open new trails. This has been a long process and started when they implemented their travel management plans and closed some trails that were not on their maps. It takes working with them in a collaborative way that helps them and the users. Some of them use these trails to recreate also and want to work with all the user groups to ensure that they have a good experience in the forest.
This is happening across the nation with different groups.

It is a long process, and the groups have to be willing to work with the agency to get this process done.
I have a Jeep, and don't understand the fight of the motorcycle, ATV, MTB and SxS groups as much, but am learning.

People have to be willing to work with the land managers in a collaborative way to ensure that all users are represented in the forest.
Todd
WE are the land managers as these are OUR employees managing OUR land. Re-opening an area to exclusive use (single track only) is not "ensuring that all users are represented in the forest".
If your gray-haired-keep-the-community-separated mentors had actually wanted you to breathe/understand the concept of 'multi-use'...they darn well would have made it a job pre-requisite.
We explain to you that our employees absolutely love to throw meaningless bones out like restoring or building new single track (only) because why?...we don't even need to explain it to you. Yet you guys want to throw out the same bare bone out to us exactly why?...because you believe that we're all stupid enough to value it if we get a brand new bumper sticker with cool new logo instead?

Fighting for our land rights has been nothing but smoke and mirrors for far too long. We know this when it is suggested that a list of the land that we have lost is more important in the fight than how we got our butts kicked in the first place at the grunt warfare level.

Our kids deserve to know the whole story as they are the ones who don't give a rip as to who shows up with what at the trailhead. It's their arrogant parents and aged grandparents who are STILL teaching them that this matters while the nation's public land use system implodes.
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
..what you're dealing with every day is akin to what many of us are dealing with out here on other issues (and why candidates such as Trump are surging):
We've been losing and losing...and losing.
We're not about to throw good money after bad or simply accept losing anymore.
If those who we support aren't even 'acting' upset or coming up with any more than the same old tired solutions as we lose yet again (and again)...then frankly they have to go.

The problem (and this applies to the entire country) is that most of these old bastards actually don't care anymore as they've set themselves up to ride (literally) off into the sunset regardless of how their grandchildren's opportunities are affected.

Remember, these old farts rode it all and saw things that nobody will probably ever see again.

They should be the angriest warriors in this fight right now and willing to pull out all the stops to make sure what they enjoyed is indeed passed down.

Yet they're no 'Trump'...and never will be (that strategy didn't get them to where they are now with everything in shambles all around them).
 

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