Incident on 3N93 Holcomb Creek on Saturday 7-14-12

[JoeyD23]

Joey,

As I said a few posts back, I tried to get this rolling last year and was unable to do so. I'm glad that we can move forward because I think we are screwed if we don't. It isn't the way I think it should be, but that's life.

I also pm'd you then trying to get support from this site. You hold a ton of credibility in this community and I also spoke with Gregg last year about UTVUnderground and La Familia.

I apologize for not supporting it then. You guys know how many pokers I got in the fire at all times....

Do we have your permission to use your likeness and this site? Are we authorized to speak on behalf of UTVUnderground?

Well I think legally I have to be careful about "authorizing" anyone but myself to speak for the site "UTVUnderground", HOWEVER - you guys represent our site regardless, and have every right to mention our site and its impact ont he community. So in essence you already are speaking on behalf of the site... which does scare me sometimes cause I have partied with you guys and you guys know how to party! hahaha

I know these are silly questions, but I want to make sure we have your blessing to do so. I think we can calmly and professionally represent our cause. We do have some very strongly opinionated folks here, present company included, but I think we are so because of our passion.

You guys are the best! Your passion is what makes you guys so awesome and makes me proud to have you representing our site on the trails!

I was actively involved in the Save JV campaign, still am, so this isn't the first for me either.

I for one cannot make tonights meeting, I have to babysit a spacecraft, but these meetings are monthly, and let's see how next month lines up.

I would like to ask that anyone going tonight report back to the group on the discussion with a summary of what took place.

You all have my permission to sign me up, and I'll do what I can when able. Please PM me for my email address if needed.

This is in my backyard, so I have ready access to this from my house, literally.

I would also think that a subject of this importance warrants it's own forum to post and discuss in.

NOOOO, Not another forum! hahahaha I am actually considering condensing forums!! lol I think the Fight For Your Rights forum is perfect for this discussion and other surrounding this topic. ANYTHING political should remain in this section.

What say ye?

I say, you guys go kick some trail ASS!

Dan...

SEE RED

 

[dkiewicz]

Dan, this is the right place "Fight for your rights" once we have more info we can start a thread about the meeting or continue here!

What is really funny is Mike, the guy riding with me, and a first timer was amazed at how calm I was during the whole thing! He doesn't know me and this was the first time I met him, not to mention his first time off-road, and his comment was "What is wrong with them?" But if it helps to focus on me, that's fine, but this is not about me! This about Freedom, an over reaching Government, intimidation by the FS, and a Government too big and out of control! It is able to turn it's people on each other! As stated before and at the trail "We have to stop eating our young"! United we stand!

Bear,

Oh, I already got the gist of the conversation, what I'm figuring is that there's strength in numbers, and I see way more UTV's out there than Jeeps, so if we come together as a whole we will have a bigger voting block and we will have to be included and a force to be reckoned with!

Nothings going to change posting here, we've got to do it there. Unfortunately, the FS et.al., make the rules and UTVers have to have a voice in that.

I for one don't mind another excuse to go out into the trails and spend some time, so I'll pack up my shovel and some garbage bags and head off to the mountains!!! Sounds like fun to me...


And thanks Chuck for the quarterly heads up. We'll see where that one falls....


Dan....

 

[JoeyD23]

Papa Bear mentioned it earlier but this would be the PERFECT battle for a seasoned ISA staff to take on in due time. The ISA has succumb to reality with how busy the leaderships daily work lives are but a resurgence is coming and one day I would hope to see a united front of UTV's via the ISA battling these types of issues!

 

[Rzrcsi]

A view from the outside... I was not there but I know many of the people that were.

It looks like a case of -- we worked hard on something and now we want it for ourselves -- There is no other rational reason why a TRAIL would be designated "street legal only" other than to exclude others. Granted "Jeeps" are the biggest things on most trails and by default when it is legal for them to be on a trail it is usually legal for everything else that is smaller so they don't have many designated "jeeps only" trails.

It appears they have found a way to have a trail for them alone.

 

[JoeyD23]

A view from the outside... I was not there but I know many of the people that were.

It looks like a case of -- we worked hard on something and now we want it for ourselves -- There is no other rational reason why a TRAIL would be designated "street legal only" other than to exclude others. Granted "Jeeps" are the biggest things on most trails and by default when it is legal for them to be on a trail it is usually legal for everything else that is smaller so they don't have many designated "jeeps only" trails.

It appears they have found a way to have a trail for them alone.

This is how I too read it at first but then realized that what these guys are saying is the trail is marked for being for street legal vehicles ONLY. So while maybe these guys could have turned a blind eye and not said anything they didn't and they have a point. I wan't there, I don't know what they said or did or how they acted to get our group so riled up but at the end of the day it sounds like they are right and we are wrong??? I don't know about codes and signage and laws and all that but if I see a legit sign that says this road or trail is for street legal vehicles only I am not going to drive on it. Been there, done that and I paid those fines already!!! lol

Maybe I am missing something here.. I am still trying to decipher what exactly occurred and what exactly the beef is??

 

[ROTAX]

A view from the outside... I was not there but I know many of the people that were.

It looks like a case of -- we worked hard on something and now we want it for ourselves -- There is no other rational reason why a TRAIL would be designated "street legal only" other than to exclude others. Granted "Jeeps" are the biggest things on most trails and by default when it is legal for them to be on a trail it is usually legal for everything else that is smaller so they don't have many designated "jeeps only" trails.

It appears they have found a way to have a trail for them alone.

EXACTLY!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

 

[ROTAX]

BTW, I HOPE SOMEBODY CALLED SIZZLER TO LET THEM KNOW ONE OF THE MOST LIVELIEST GROUPS OF PEOPLE WILL BE THERE TONIGHT. THEY SHOULD ALSO MAKE EXTRA GARLICE TOAST, CAUSE THAT STUFF ROCKS!! WISH I COULD BE THERE!! BUT I WILL SUPPORT ANY ACTION BY LA FAMILIA, TO MOVE FORWARD IN ACCESS TO OUR BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY FOR ALLL, AND NOT JUST SOME!!!!

 

[offroader]

Your club does not have your priorities in the right spot. You say you want to help get trails open and improve access. thats BS. You opened a trail in the middle of the forest and supported it as a "street legal" trail only!! Don't blame the FS, blame yourselves. You clearly supported this, and this obviously limits access to a lot of us. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the lies and depceptions. Your actions say complete opposite of your so called position. You should have championed that trail for all to use. Why even bother, unless you really just wanted to AAT something for yourselves and your buddies. Change your attitude and get your minds right. You expect us to work along side of you, but you're clearly only in it for yourselves. How dare you support such exclusionary behavior. Really?

You are clearly misguided. I take it you were not there so were do you get your facts? Papa Bear? You don't know me, you didn't talk to me, and you don't know how I reacted. So you have no right to judge me. Not once did I "blame" the FS anything. All we did was work to get an existing trail open. I didn't come here to throw stones but that is clearly how a couple of you operate. I wish you luck but my advice to you change your attitude if you plan on representing your community.

 

[Jeff Knoll]

Against my better judgement I am posting from my vacation after receiving an email on this subject.

Benefiting from experience on both sides of this argument I will add my two cents perhaps from a different perspective. Take it for what its worth.

Papa Bear I agree with a lot of your message, but having watched your delivery here for some time I think you could accomplish a lot more if your practiced a little less aggressive approach.

I recently (last month) looked a trail map of the trail system in Big Bear and Arrowhead in amazement of the opportunities that are lacking for UTV owners. There is little "legal" opportunities for this growing market segment. That needs to change. They are selling at an alarming rate, and are very similar to the size of a flat fender Jeep.

On the other hand, Jeep (as a very broad description) Owners have worked very hard to regain access to trails in the Arrowhead trail system. Protection of the work they have done is a paramount concern for them. Not having the Luxury of being on this trip I am ASSUMING a few things.

Currently non street registered vehicles are not allowed on certain trails. There are very complicated legal requirements for funding, enforcement, management and maintenance that take place in our Forest. Adopt a trail groups offer a volunteer service that is critical to keeping trails in our forest open for travel. (this is a federal management area, not state or county)

RESPECT seems to be the root of this argument. Lack of respect for the UTV owner, and lack of respect for the hard work of others to maintain access. It is a very uncomfortable position offroaders are finding themselves in regarding enforcement. on one hand if we don't enforce ourselves we will surely continue the downward spiral of OHV opportunities. On the other we(individual citizens) are not properly equipped to enforce law. With funding of grants reduced we will find ourselves engaging in this type of discussion more and more often.

Three items for consideration. I have enjoyed almost every trail in the San Bernardino forest over the last 25 years in less than street legal yet licensed vehicles. One of them a full Rock buggy. Would the Jeep club in question have made the same remark to a rock buggy, or 4x4 on full width axles, and back halved?

Was every UTV on this trail actually registered street legal in its state of origin? (Paperwork and Insurance, not windshields and front license plates.)

Would this have ended up on the web in confrontation if the trail side discussion had taken place with anyone other then Papa Bear?

Is this an item the ISA should be looking at? Absofrickenlutly. But we are a small group of UTV businessman who donate are extra time trying to organize a group of people who really don't have an inclination to be organized. We (the ISA) can only be as strong as the membership.

IMHO and experience there are way's to change federal policy, but getting in trailside, and web fights with our own industry do little to further that agenda. Since its inception my statements at the early meetings of the ISA were that items like this would need to be discussed and acted upon. Unfortunately we have chosen to misplace our efforts on racing primarily.

No matter your opinion of the impact of a UTV, our federal government does not recognize them as a suitable method of travel on Street Legal routes it appears, and that is what we should be focusing a little more effort on.....EDUCATION.

I invite every UTV owner who wants to affect change to consider attending the ISA convention October 18-21. We are begging for two additional board members and increased participation in this not for profit group who in time may be able to address items like this.

Last point. I love making my Jeep owner friends look bad on trails, its all in fun. BUT I have seen first hand the discrimination on trails. In turn I have given attitude back taunting 4x4 owners for holding up trail and being a trail tampon. No matter what side of the fence you end up on, it takes two to engage in a fight. We should all direct the fight in the correct direction. Against those who wish to deny us legal access to motorized recreation on public lands. Sadly we are an apathetic community who seems to be resolved to allowing others to do something for us. If nothing else perhaps this debate will engage a few more soldiers into a battle that is in need of more funding, and a larger fighting force.

 

[offroader]

Jeff,

Excellent post.

As there are aways two sides of a story I will only comment on one thing.

Would the Jeep club in question have made the same remark to a rock buggy, or 4x4 on full width axles, and back halved?

Absolutely. Fact is this just happens recently with a rock buggy on the trial. The driver was made aware of the situation.

Again, there is no anti-UTV agenda here.

edit: this has also been the case with non street legal motorcycles on the trail. Note: I'm a motorcycle owner.

 

[dkiewicz]

I invite every UTV owner who wants to affect change to consider attending the ISA convention October 18-21. We are begging for two additional board members and increased participation in this not for profit group who in time may be able to address items like this.

Well said Jeff, and I will take the opportunity to join you, work permitting. Thanks for the invite!

Dan...

 

[mosslager]

For starters I was not on this ride, but have been on many of the Miller Canyon rides with many of the folks from this group. It is truly ironic to me that on this occasion it is these drivers that are being blamed for breaking rules, as it is usually the other way around and forum members are the ones defending the trails from people who are out on the weekend dumping sofas and trash and such at our local trails. We have a very defensive, opinionated group on this board that consist of long time off-roaders of all sorts, including Jeepers, duners, bikers, crawlers and ATV riders that were the toys of choice prior to the UTV. Many changed to the UTV due to age, gas prices, maintenance or the fact they wanted one toy that did it all (dunes, desert, mountains, rocks, track) or others decided to down size from several family ATVs to one UTV/SXS. Others are new to the whole thing and started this off-road lifestyle off with the latest family toy which happens to be the UTV. Nonetheless, this forum is compiled of great people who strive to push the UTV/SXS industry forward. What other forum is ran by a member that is invited to all the latest media release functions by each manufacturer? I only know of one. I think some folks from this forum as well as the Jeepers got off on the wrong foot and I am certain over a campfire many would become great friends. If there were UTVs on a non-green sticker trail, then we did wrong. If they were classifying UTVs as ATV/dirt bikes then there is a fair argument. We need to pick our battles and learn when its smarter to join a group than push them away. I think as a group of off-roaders like we have here we can make a great impact and show a great presence for the UTV community in a program like AAT and it needs to be looked into. I honestly have been doing UTV/SXSs since 07 with my first Rhino and knew nothing of this program. We are now being welcomed aboard and I think for members that can attend and if for nothing else, listen in, it might be a good idea. Maybe in the future there will be a trail system for UTVs wider than 50" with a La Familia sign. That being said, besides me driving my happy ass to Ocotillo/Truck Haven, where does a SXS wider than 50" ride that is both challenging and green sticker legal in the SBNF?

 

[TwoSixRight]

That being said, besides me driving my happy ass to Ocotillo/Truck Haven, where does a SXS wider than 50" ride that is both challenging and green sticker legal in the SBNF?

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/sbnf/maps-pubs/?cid=stelprdb5156664

Anything with the symbology for "Roads Open to All Vehicles"

 

[Doug Guimond]

Time to put up or shut up. You drive your "street legal SxS" over to the local CHP office and I'll remove my front license plate and we'll have a little chat with Johnny Law. And when your vehicle gets impounded I'll give you a ride home.

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with this forum. A few of you actually get it. The rest of you have nobody to blame when the trails are gated and closed.

You should be ashamed of the yellow responses you allowed in this thread.
http://www.utvunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7451

 

[offroader]

Here is the MVUM for the SBNF. It list trails open to all vehicles.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5202570.pdf

 

[Trail cop]

Once again there is no reason to take a smart ass position when faced with other possibilities outside the Box! I deal with the Law everyday of my life and ya after 61 years my eyes are open and I understand the system and the mentality of those who run it! I fight ignorance wherever I find it, but if you feel better trying to put others down, it kind of beckons back to the attitude that got us here! I think you my be Bi-Polar, first you attack, then you apologize, then attack again! Which Cop am I talking to the good one or the bad one? I will certainly make a meeting one day and I hope the attitude is a better one with some open minds as the door swings in two directions! BTW no one here speaks for anyone but themselves and it sounds like you will have a couple of our regulars at your meeting!

I was only giving you back a small dose of your own bs. Listen, I agree with you that government needs to be changed. I don't like these laws, and rules and restrictions anymore than you do. None of us do. But it's a fact of life. A fact that we need to change. I already suggested spending all this angst and frustration on the powers that be and not on us. If you were insulted by what was said to you that day, so be it. I already apologized for my group even though I wasn't there. We are as passionate about offroading as you are. So lets agree to stop the name calling and group bashing and get to what matters here. I look forward to seeing whoever comes to the meeting tonight, and I hope they come ready to explain your UTV plight in a way that isn't going to turn the officials off. The worst thing you can do is come to this meeting and start pointing fingers and calling the rangers names and shit like that. These are good people who have a job just like you, and they have to do that job or someone else will. Come speak to them in a respectful manner and lay it on the line for them. Greg is a super cool guy and will listen to you. Things can and will change for all of us, if your patient, vote the current aholes that are screwing us out of office, and most of all, make freinds with the guys on the street (forest roads in this case). They are, for the most part on our side. They like to offroad too.

 

[mosslager]

I was only giving you back a small dose of your own bs. Listen, I agree with you that government needs to be changed. I don't like these laws, and rules and restrictions anymore than you do. None of us do. But it's a fact of life. A fact that we need to change. I already suggested spending all this angst and frustration on the powers that be and not on us. If you were insulted by what was said to you that day, so be it. I already apologized for my group even though I wasn't there. We are as passionate about offroading as you are. So lets agree to stop the name calling and group bashing and get to what matters here. I look forward to seeing whoever comes to the meeting tonight, and I hope they come ready to explain your UTV plight in a way that isn't going to turn the officials off. The worst thing you can do is come to this meeting and start pointing fingers and calling the rangers names and shit like that. These are good people who have a job just like you, and they have to do that job or someone else will. Come speak to them in a respectful manner and lay it on the line for them. Greg is a super cool guy and will listen to you. Things can and will change for all of us, if your patient, vote the current aholes that are screwing us out of office, and most of all, make freinds with the guys on the street (forest roads in this case). They are, for the most part on our side. They like to offroad too.

Dirk,

Are these meetings for AAT always at the same location at 6pm or do the change? I would be interested in attending, however I work graveyards and live in Irvine.

 

[Trail cop]

Dirk,

Are these meetings for AAT always at the same location at 6pm or do the change? I would be interested in attending, however I work graveyards and live in Irvine.

Yes, the meetings are always at the Sizzler in Corona, off Magnolia , first exit south of the 91/15 interchange, Same time, 6pm. They are quarterly. I will post the dates and times in a thread here on this forum for those who want to attend, then after a while one of you can take up that job.

 

[RHINOdan]

A view from the outside... I was not there but I know many of the people that were.

It looks like a case of -- we worked hard on something and now we want it for ourselves -- There is no other rational reason why a TRAIL would be designated "street legal only" other than to exclude others. Granted "Jeeps" are the biggest things on most trails and by default when it is legal for them to be on a trail it is usually legal for everything else that is smaller so they don't have many designated "jeeps only" trails.

It appears they have found a way to have a trail for them alone.

After read through some of the posts on this thread - your reply is exactly what I am thinking. I have seen trail 3N93 and it is totally due-a-ble in a UTV - so why is it "street legal" only?

I know I will receive a reply to my comment stating something in the lines of "I don't make the rules" but whoever did makes us assume that he is a jeep (street legal) fanatic and favoring them in lieu of any other types of vehicles that could also ride and enjoy the trail with them?

 

[Craig]

After read through some of the posts on this thread - your reply is exactly what I am thinking. I have seen trail 3N93 and it is totally due-a-ble in a UTV - so why is it "street legal" only?

I know I will receive a reply to my comment stating something in the lines of "I don't make the rules" but whoever did makes us assume that he is a jeep (street legal) fanatic and favoring them in lieu of any other types of vehicles that could also ride and enjoy the trail with them?

DAN, REALLY?????? again! did somebody stop the short bus and let Dan out again??? Who loves ya?