What new cars will I want to check out.

NIKAL

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May 13, 2012
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Just because something comes off a shelf does not make it bad. You crack me up with your comments about all this stuff. The funny part is all the top teams use "off the shelf parts" like S3, Cognito, Angal, Simms, Jagged X, Holz, and myself included. Comparing a product like what we use from Holz, Lonestar, S3, Cognito, or Jimco to a "Rancho kit" puts the Dick in redickuls. Let the racing and results do the talking, not your keyboard.
I said it before "trick parts = trick problems"
Wayne,
I never said an off the shelf kit is bad, what I'm saying is their is so much left of the table when running a kit that is also designed to be used with stock geometry all the way to shock location, when the UTV rules are wide open in this area. I get that these kits are built to be bought and used on Rec users UTV's, as that is where the money is to be made. Your a custom cabinet guy, so you understand why your custom cabinets are much better built and designed for a specific kitchen vs Home Depot box kits. And Yes all the top teams are currently using these components, because not very many have ventured out to build a race specific part. I know of a few that are, and I feel this is going to change what some teams run or how they might modify their current suspension components. Why on a trucks 4 link rear end, like the Spec TT you are going to race at San Felipe have the lower shock mounts mounted down into the arm? Why are UTV rear arms still mounting the shocks on the top of the arm? How much leverage have you added to the arm? How stiff of a front spring are the Lone Star guys using?

And where did I compare Jimco to Rancho?? I used them as an example of a company that builds race specific parts. BTW Jagged is not running a "Kit" as last time I saw they are having Cutting Edge MFG still build their parts and they do move shock mounts around. Same for Holz, as I'm pretty sure he did a front steer conversion on his car?
 
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baja specialist

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Mar 23, 2013
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Wayne,
I never said an off the shelf kit is bad, what I'm saying is their is so much left of the table when running a kit that is also designed to be used with stock geometry all the way to shock location, when the UTV rules are wide open in this area. I get that these kits are built to be bought and used on Rec users UTV's, as that is where the money is to be made. Your a custom cabinet guy, so you understand why your custom cabinets are much better built and designed for a specific kitchen vs Home Depot box kits. And Yes all the top teams are currently using these components, because not very many have ventured out to build a race specific part. I know of a few that are, and I feel this is going to change what some teams run or how they might modify their current suspension components. Why on a trucks 4 link rear end, like the Spec TT you are going to race at San Felipe have the lower shock mounts down into the arm? Why are UTV rear arms still mounting the shocks on the top of the arm? How much leverage have you added to the arm? How stiff of a front spring are the Lone Star guys using?

And where did I compare Jimco to Rancho?? I used them as an example of a company that builds race specific parts. BTW Jagged is not running a "Kit" as last time I saw they are having Cutting Edge MFG still build their parts and they do move shock mounts around. Same for Holz, as I'm pretty sure he did a front steer conversion on his car?
I get it..... most of the kits out there are pretty standard but some put in the time to make them right. Then again no matter how good the car is you still have to have the team behind it to prep it, pit it, let alone drive it.
 

NIKAL

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May 13, 2012
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I get it..... most of the kits out there are pretty standard but some put in the time to make them right. Then again no matter how good the car is you still have to have the team behind it to prep it, pit it, let alone drive it.
I 100% agree! I have preached to my team and the many who I have helped in Baja over the years. The driver is a very small part of it. Even Robby Gordon is only as good or as fast as his crew. His TT will get him about 150 miles before he's out of gas. Without a good crew your race is done. Without good prep, you mine as well not even race. This is why teams like McMillin's are so good in Baja. They have the whole package! BTW much of what I learned back in the day was from helping and chasing for Julson, who again is an outside the box thinker.
 

///Airdam Clutches

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So...... You're saying that Home Depot cabinets aren't any good ? And that custom cabinets will hold my box of lucky charms better than Home Depot cabinets ?
 

NIKAL

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May 13, 2012
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So...... You're saying that Home Depot cabinets aren't any good ? And that custom cabinets will hold my box of lucky charms better than Home Depot cabinets ?
Yep! and that's why everyone should use Premier Cabinets. Premier Cabinets will hold the Costco size box of Lucky Charms with no problems, and look great doing it too!
 

the stripping shop

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I think more of the problem is manufactures keep changing frame design. Were geiser,jimco,racer, use the same pick up points on every truck with minimal changes. Imagine jimco sending out for all there laser cut tubes and plates for suspension, spending countless hours on design of suspension and pow Polaris changes all the pick up points on there latest utv.I would think you would spend less time on the suspension after that. Look at lone star and cognito, they used desert idea "keep it simple and stupid". You have about a 3 year window on suspension before the next one is up. There are many people that have done the one off suspension, but its pretty hard to just buy one already race proven. Kind of like the JIMCO,GEISER,RACER anbody can try to build a truck, but its pretty easy to just go buy one that's already proven in the desert.
 

BiggJim

I Hate Rules - UTVUnderground Approved
Jan 15, 2009
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Regarding steering & shock geometry, whoever is not trying to move & improve is not taking advantage of the rules and will be racing for second place. How many teams have actually cycled their suspension to see how much bump steer and camber change they have? How much more leverage are these longer dog leg rear XP trailing arms adding to the radius rods and pivot points? How can you fix and reduce these big issues with the XP? What pound springs are you having to use to overcome the longer a-arms with stock shock mounts?

IMO buying off the shelf long travel kits and using stock shock geometry won't be the choice of the top contending teams by the end of this season. You don't see guys buying Rancho kits and bolting them on their race trucks.
Then dont bet on us!!! Because off the shelf parts is what we intend to run! We'll leave the Wizbang custom shit for the Top Teams.:rolleyes:
 
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tatum

Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU
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I'm not sure why everyone is busting on Nikal for stateing the obvious but hey it is the internet. Just because the top teams are running it doesn't mean it's the best, but it definitely could mean it's the best available. I completely understand why teams like Cognito and LSR run what they sell, its good business. But how many TT, TT spec, C1 cars or class 10 cars do you see running rear steer front suspension? None but all the VW classes do. Is it good enough to win, obviously it is, but it is far from ideal. Is widening your suspension and increasing your motion ratios on your shocks good enough to win, obviously it is. Again, is it ideal? If you can only go 70mph top speed but can hit anything at that speed because of trick parts is that a problem?I'm not sure why discussing this is considered bagging on other people but apparently it is.
 
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BiggJim

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I think the notion that off the shelf parts are sub part is off base....there has been plenty of guys try and bring out utv's with big stroke shocks and repositioned mount and not done squat. The Becker motorsports car comes to mind....that car probably had 100+k in it 3 years ago and made 2 races....1st race went less than 60 miles and the second race was less....it don't take re engineering the wheel to win races.....we probably have one of the most competitive classes in the desert and 95% of the cars are bolt on suspension. Someone mentioned only the Redlands guys engineered everything in solidworks....you don't think other guys are doing that? LOL....really?
 

BiggJim

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And listen I'm not saying there's not some fat that can be trimmed.... but as matlock said perfectly trick parts=trick problems.
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
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I do agree with Nikal tho, even if you only have 5hp, there is improvements that will make a difference. If the current utv platform sticks for 5 more years then it will require those tricks to stay on top.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

tatum

Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU
Feb 10, 2009
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I think the notion that off the shelf parts are sub part is off base....there has been plenty of guys try and bring out utv's with big stroke shocks and repositioned mount and not done squat. The Becker motorsports car comes to mind....that car probably had 100+k in it 3 years ago and made 2 races....1st race went less than 60 miles and the second race was less....it don't take re engineering the wheel to win races.....we probably have one of the most competitive classes in the desert and 95% of the cars are bolt on suspension. Someone mentioned only the Redlands guys engineered everything in solidworks....you don't think other guys are doing that? LOL....really?
Was there dnf do to the big stroke shocks? I also dont get where you come up with anybody saying that off the shelf parts are sub par as I would say they have proven other wise. There are however ways to improve factory short comings but just because someone doesn't want to do them doesn't mean they aren't worth doing.
 

BiggJim

I Hate Rules - UTVUnderground Approved
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Was there dnf do to the big stroke shocks? I also dont get where you come up with anybody saying that off the shelf parts are sub par as I would say they have proven other wise. There are however ways to improve factory short comings but just because someone doesn't want to do them doesn't mean they aren't worth doing.
Actually yea...it was their short coming. At the mint the poor guy totaled the car due to an ill handling machine....he G'ed out and went ass over tea kettle 3 times...car was mangled. That car had all kinds of custom work....pro am hubs, big brakes, custom one off everything.....game changer everyone exclaimed.
 

tatum

Hans Solo - 2009 UTV Baja 500 & 1000 Winner - UTVU
Feb 10, 2009
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More than likely it going ass over was do to poor setup or operator error. I dont think it was due to a good shock motion ratio.
 

NIKAL

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May 13, 2012
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So because a guy builds a "Game Changer" car and wads it up, that means that his concept was proven to not work? Just asking because I've seen allot of waded up cars over the years. Maybe he did not have his shocks valved right? Wrong springs? Maybe he did not have the alignment square and the car would not track strait? Or maybe he just ran out of talent and crashed the car? I've seen & worked with guys who have more money then brains and can get over their head riding a tricycle.

Heck I've been out testing with the best and seen them crash in testing. Ask John Marking from Fox about wadding up big time his Jimco Dominator while testing in Plaster City. That one was real scary!
 

BiggJim

I Hate Rules - UTVUnderground Approved
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The point I'm trying to make is that there has been a lot of cars show up that was going to be game changing and didn't do much.....doesnot mean that the next guy can't keep trying. Bring it. I just think that the "off the shelf parts chasing second place" is a little premature until someone really has a game changer
 

the stripping shop

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Seems to be only time there is a "game changer" is when the manufacture comes out with a new UTV. EX kitty cat at the mint 400 but I heard through the grape vine they dumped the program. Can am suppose to have totally new utv for 2017. You would think more would jump on too Yamaha but seems that has fizzled out. That suspension could use allot of work.
 

the stripping shop

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Time and money is the answer. All the big manufactures want to build something to sell cognito/ lonestar/ jimco/ geiser, no matter how you look at it. Can they make it better yes in certain ways yes. Can I/ nikal/ tatum, do it on our own and change everything ex like reid did with monster mav, yes we can. Do we have the time and money to do probably not. Allot of trial and error. There is plenty of room for improvement but pretty hard to not buy it from them and go race the next race.
 
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