All UTV's Alignment

[badassmav]

Since we bent up our car at San Felipe, I found it necessary to perform a 4 wheel alignment of the repaired chassis before racing the Mint this week. Due to the mecca of spherical bearings and rod ends we used in building the car, there is an infinite amount of adjustment. A lot more weight, but always a well mannered car to drive as a result. I like the camber between -.3 and -.6 degrees, and the caster around +4 degrees. Toe in is between 1/16" and 1/8". Note the "ride ht." strips to hold the wheel at the desired location so I can accurately make the necessary adjustments..

 

[the stripping shop]

it sucks how much bump steer the front has through full travel its about as bad as rear of rzr. did you move steering rack or find happy medium by moving arms forward or backwards.

 

[badassmav]

it sucks how much bump steer the front has through full travel its about as bad as rear of rzr. did you move steering rack or find happy medium by moving arms forward or backwards.

Actually, I converted the steering from a rear steer to a front steer, then used a 11 1/2" aftermarket rack n pinion. I moved the front axle C/L forward 1.75", and had to run the tie rods and rack way up high to minimize the bump steer. The results are 18 1/2" of usable travel with about 1/4" bump steer. At full bump, the frame is a scary low 2" from the ground! Notice that I used the stock cast spindles, but reversed them (I used the driver side spindle on the passenger side, and vice versa) and utilized the stock steering arm as a platform to mount the elevated tie rod ends to. Although the spindles are cast iron, I was still able to effectively weld them with the proper pre and post heating. I used 3/32" Nyrod (arc welding electrodes) and cleaned of 100% of the flux on the outside of the rods before TIG welding the spindles. It is a laborious effort, and takes almost 7 hours just to weld one spindle and that's after it has already been tacked together! (this is due to the fact that it takes numerous trips to the oven while welding as not to allow the temperature of the spindle drop below 375 degrees) I have decided to fab 100% of the new spindles for our 4 seat chassis out of 4140 alloy steel. The extra tenth of a percent of carbon in this alloy allows it to accept a heat treat. These UTE's pull left to right bad enough as it is. I could only imagine the additional handling challenges if you added excessive bump steer to the equation.

 

[the stripping shop]

i forgot you put rack in front. 1/4 of bump steer is nice see you guys at mint.

 

[badassmav]

Actually, I converted the steering from a rear steer to a front steer, then used a 11 1/2" aftermarket rack n pinion. I moved the front axle C/L forward 1.75", and had to run the tie rods and rack way up high to minimize the bump steer. The results are 18 1/2" of usable travel with about 1/4" bump steer. At full bump, the frame is a scary low 2" from the ground! Notice that I used the stock cast spindles, but reversed them (I used the driver side spindle on the passenger side, and vice versa) and utilized the stock steering arm as a platform to mount the elevated tie rod ends to. Although the spindles are cast iron, I was still able to effectively weld them with the proper pre and post heating. I used 3/32" Nyrod (arc welding electrodes) and cleaned of 100% of the flux on the outside of the rods before TIG welding the spindles. It is a laborious effort, and takes almost 7 hours just to weld one spindle and that's after it has already been tacked together! (this is due to the fact that it takes numerous trips to the oven while welding as not to allow the temperature of the spindle drop below 375 degrees) I have decided to fab 100% of the new spindles for our 4 seat chassis out of 4140 alloy steel. The extra tenth of a percent of carbon in this alloy allows it to accept a heat treat. These UTE's pull left to right bad enough as it is. I could only imagine the additional handling challenges if you added excessive bump steer to the equation.

So, I was speaking with this fabricator at the mint. He modified one of the Mavericks (Lansky's, I think) similar to ours in regards to the front steer conversion. I thought it was cool that the position of their steering arms was similar to ours. Whether or not he got it from my posts is not as important as it being in the right position. Unfortunately, the car lost both rear cv's, but they got them replaced in only 12 minutes, so they posted! Incredible job guys!
Anyway, the fab guy said that all the prep and welding jargon that I went through to weld my modified spindles was unnecessary. He claims that he just ground smooth the surface of the spindle, then TIG welded it, using conventional means, meaning no pre or post heating, and I think he said that he used a mild steel rod (most likely E-70s2). When I asked him what about the carbon content, and porosity in the casting, he claimed that it was a different type of casting. Similar to a nodular casting (used in quality, high stressed components, like 3rd members and truck spindles). When I ran a test weld before fabbing our spindles, I welded a small piece of 4130 to the spindle, as delivered from BRP, and with no preparation other than grinding off the paint. It broke right off with a pair of pliers, so I treated it as a sand casting, and applied pre and post welding processes that was necessary to achieve a sound TIG weld in cast iron (that caused the welding to be in the area of 8 hours per spindle). I'll add more later. Gotta go.
So, to finish my thought, there is no proper way to TIG weld onto cast iron. Not to my knowledgeat least. Now, I'm not even sure that the spindles are a sand casting, based on what I've learned over the weekend. They sure exhibit the characteristics of cast, and I will still treat them accordingly. Arc welding is the best way to achieve reliable results. Due to the intricate and numerous pieces (over 12 separate plates per spindle) required to assemble our spindles, bulky arc welding was not an option. Although I was certified in MIG and TIG welding in the past, an arc welder I am not!
I am not condoning the simplified welding process suggested to me at the Mint race. I will say, that the spindles on the Maverick that he modified were still holding together after the first lap, whereas if I TIG welded them as per my first test piece that I ran prior to fabricating our spindles (without all the pre and post treatments), they would have failed in the first couple of miles. I will now make a point to ask the engineers at BRP about the composition and manufacturing processes used on the stock spindles. I hate being wrong but, I love to learn!

 

[Glamisfan]

I welded chromoly plate to my stocks rhino front spindles. I saw some short course racers that had done it, so I copied them. I think the rhinos front spindles are a cast steel, and they welded up just fine. I know there's a drill test that you can do, where if you drill into a cast piece and it produces powdered metal, that you cannot weld it. But if you drill into it and it throws out spiraled /large flakes that it is okay to weld it.

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[badassmav]

I welded chromoly plate to my stocks rhino front spindles. I saw some short course racers that had done it, so I copied them. I think the rhinos front spindles are a cast steel, and they welded up just fine. I know there's a drill test that you can do, where if you drill into a cast piece and it produces powdered metal, that you cannot weld it. But if you drill into it and it throws out spiraled /large flakes that it is okay to weld it.

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I must admit, I've never heard of that. Once I read your post, it made total sense because I have drilled cast iron before, and you are correrct in the fact that instead of coil spring-type shavings, it produces dust. Thanks for that tip, GF! (I'll just call you "Captain Obvious" from now on !)
To figure out if the metal is cast or not, I usually run a sample weld and try to break it off. In addition, there is a grind test that I perform, and it is fairly accurate IF you can read the sparks. The higher carbon content in cast iron is what causes the welds to crack. It also produces a much brighter, and compact spark pattern when ground on a grinding stone. So why does cast iron not weld you ask? Ha ha, I'll tell you !
Around 1% of cast iron is composed of carbon, as opposed to a material like 4130, which has only .3% carbon, and is classified as a low to medium carbon steel. Immediately after welding, and upon cooling, the liquified carbon solution from the cast iron saturates the lattices of the metal that you are adding on to it, and consequently changes the composition of said lattice. Grain structure is also adversely affected if you allow the weldment to cool too rapidly. Grain structure plays a huge role in the malleability of metals. That is why when welding thicker cross sections (3/8" thick and up) of medium carbon steels, and especially high carbon steels like castings, pre and post heating is crucial to the life and integrity of the joint. This allows the carbon atoms more time to evenly distribute themselves within the other metal's lattice(s), as opposed to all of the carbon 'freezing' itself in concentrated zones.

 

[Glamisfan]

Right on! I finally schooled the teacher! LOL! One other thing, when I was welding the plate to the rhino spindle, I only welded about 1 inch on two different places on the spindle, and then I would let it sit there and cool for about 20 minutes and then weld another inch here and there, and then let it sit again until I was finally finished. From looking at it, I thought that if I would do the whole thing at once, that as it cooled it would develop cracks from the two different types of metal/thicknesses of metal cooling at different rates. I had that happen once in the past on something. On the rhino spindle, I added a triangular plate with a bend in it for CV clearance to the front and rear of the spindles, tying the top ball joint area to the lower one, and boxing the spindle in. And then I added a couple of plates to the tie rod area, strengthening it too. During the five years that I drove it, I bent two spindles from stuffing the front end, but the plating that I did held up fine.

 

[badassmav]

Right on! I finally schooled the teacher! LOL! One other thing, when I was welding the plate to the rhino spindle, I only welded about 1 inch on two different places on the spindle, and then I would let it sit there and cool for about 20 minutes and then weld another inch here and there, and then let it sit again until I was finally finished. From looking at it, I thought that if I would do the whole thing at once, that as it cooled it would develop cracks from the two different types of metal/thicknesses of metal cooling at different rates. I had that happen once in the past on something. On the rhino spindle, I added a triangular plate with a bend in it for CV clearance to the front and rear of the spindles, tying the top ball joint area to the lower one, and boxing the spindle in. And then I added a couple of plates to the tie rod area, strengthening it too. During the five years that I drove it, I bent two spindles from stuffing the front end, but the plating that I did held up fine.

You will achieve more consistent results when welding spindles if you first tack the pieces in place, then stick the spindle, weld ready, in your oven at 425-475 degrees. Once at that temp, you can remove it (turn the oven down to 350 degrees, and weld 100% of the spindle. It is still wise to skip around to avoid warpage. Do not let the spindle drop below 275 degrees while welding. If so, put it back in the oven. After weldind is complete, put the spindle back in the oven, and turn it off. The spindle will then slowly cool back down. That is the method that I have used for years. Sucessfully. I use my oven for fabbing, as much as I do cooking! You can also successfully reduce the free height of a coil spring in the oven. Done it numerous times!

 

[JoeyD23]

Good read

 

[mearsman]

I'm almost done with the front steer conversion after being inspired by you after I lawn darted my Mav in glamis. I've got a question for you. I've mounted my steering rack almost in the same location as yours. I made and installed the tie rods and then jacked it up in the air to check full droop tolerances and I was disappointed at what I saw. At full droop I had about 2" of toe in. At ride height it was about 1/4" toe in. So do I need to drop the mounting location of the steering rack to achieve more of a nuetral angle for the tie rods?

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[mearsman]

Anyone?


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[badassmav]

I'm almost done with the front steer conversion after being inspired by you after I lawn darted my Mav in glamis. I've got a question for you. I've mounted my steering rack almost in the same location as yours. I made and installed the tie rods and then jacked it up in the air to check full droop tolerances and I was disappointed at what I saw. At full droop I had about 2" of toe in. At ride height it was about 1/4" toe in. So do I need to drop the mounting location of the steering rack to achieve more of a nuetral angle for the tie rods?

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First off, how did you re-locate the steering arm on the spindle? It moved from the stock rear position to the front of the axle, so by what means did the move take place? Also, what is the centerline dimension on your new rack? Measuire from the centerline of the bolts where the tie rods mount to. It is probably around 13". Are the a arms stock length, and did you retain the stock ball joint locations on the spindles? At full droop, how far below the main frame rails (the tubes that run parallel with the wheelbase, below the seats) does the centerline of the spindle sit? Don't worry, mine had a gob of bump steer when I first placed the rack. We'll work on getting rid of it for you.
A basic rule of thumb when choosing and mounting a
new rack is that the centerline dimension of the inner tie rod pivots should fall here:
Looking at the front of the vehicle, draw a line connecting the top a arm pivot points to the bottom a arm pivot points. The pivot of your tie rods should fall on that line. Mounting height and steering arm location also play key roles here. You will also need to support the front of the frame where the rack mounts. I'll attatch a pic of mine.

 

[mearsman]

I can't thank you enough for responding. That info and that picture I've been searching for about a month to find. I gave it my best shot after looking at every picture of the front of the monster Mav that I could get my hands on.
I took the spindles off and switched sides. I took off the brake calipers with it and switched sides as well.
I mounted the rack as far to the ground with out wanting to notch the frame. As I've discovered in the picture you've attached I'll need to notch it and reinforce it to get the steering knuckle that goes into the rack as close to the front differential as possible.
I'll start with the info you've me this far and get back to work.

Once again, thank you for passing on your knowledge and I'll be sure to do the same



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[badassmav]

I can't thank you enough for responding. That info and that picture I've been searching for about a month to find. I gave it my best shot after looking at every picture of the front of the monster Mav that I could get my hands on.
I took the spindles off and switched sides. I took off the brake calipers with it and switched sides as well.
I mounted the rack as far to the ground with out wanting to notch the frame. As I've discovered in the picture you've attached I'll need to notch it and reinforce it to get the steering knuckle that goes into the rack as close to the front differential as possible.
I'll start with the info you've me this far and get back to work.

Once again, thank you for passing on your knowledge and I'll be sure to do the same



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Worry not! I wouldn't encourage UTVUG members to jump into the deep end, with out offering a life vest! But I want to let you know that the brakes need attention. In nmodifying ours, I learned that the Maverick calipers are "direction sensitive", meaning that if the rotor passes through them in the opposite direction than stock, the lead slide pin, which is the one threaded into the bracket, is no longer carrying the load. The result is poor braking, and pre-mature wear of the brake pads, as well as the floating slider pin, which is now the lead pin, will wear out before 200 miles of driving, as well as the brake pads in 100 miles! After considering this dilemma, I chose to go with stock brake calipers off of the Outlander. Look at the stock caliper, and the problem will become obvious. I'll attatch pics of my remedy, which is a custom, bolt-in-place bracket that picks up the stock caliper mounting holes in the spindle, and has provisions to accept the OEM Outlander caliper slider pins, as well as the OEM pads. If designing the bracket is a bit more than you can handle, I can help you out. Gotta go. I'll check back later....BAM

 

[badassmav]

Notice how I used the stock steering arm as a platform to build off of, and how I utilized the stock tie rod hole as a foundation for the new elevated tie rod pivot. Also, notice the yellow line I added on the top view image. Locate the outer tie rod pivot so that if you projected that line beginning at the outer tie rod bolt, through the steering axis (imaginary line between the center of the top and bottom ball joint) and back to the centerline of the rear axle, it will give you what is known as "positive ackerman" steering. This just means that when you turn a corner, the inside tire turns sharper than the outside tire to compensate for the tighter radius that it must follow around the turn. Some argue that it is better to have the outside tire turn sharper than the inside one (negative ackerman) due to the fact that weight transfer loads the outside tire more than the inside one, and therefore, it does more of the work. Great if you're always cornering at very high speeds with high friction coefficients (Nascar, for example), where the loss of traction causes high slip angles. Not so great when putting around the soft sands of Glamis and having your front end "plow" through the low and mid speed turns, robbing valuable horse power. I actually had to run 15" wheels to allow the space to achieve the desired ackerman, as well as minimize bump steer. I'm confident you can get satisfactory results, but it will require at least a 14" wheel. Been a long day. I'll respond to your reply tomorrow.
Check out the Mears man, grabbing the bull by the horns !!

 

[the stripping shop]

i haven't heard all these terms since school good job on the front end, not many realize how much is going on there.

 

[badassmav]

i haven't heard all these terms since school good job on the front end, not many realize how much is going on there.

Yeah, I guess that I made it a pretty busy place! Next to the motor, I feel that the front suspension and steering are the meat and potatoes of a race car. I probably attatch more value to suspension geometry than desert racing warrants, but the upside is that you know you didn't underestimate something important, and my cars never handle poorly! But please, any one choosing to copy our basic design(s) that I share should gather all of the facts before proceeding. UTVUG member "Mearsman" is a good example. He probably did not figure that the brakes needed upgrading when switching sides with the calipers. I covered that in past posts, but it's hard to read them all! Keep in mind, the results I boast here are based on our car (i.e. 15" wheels, + 6 1/2" arms, etc.), and the combination of components that I chose to run play a key role in achieving said results. But, we can certainly help reduce Mearsman's bump steer from the whopping numbers he reported!

 

[mearsman]

For sure about the research. I've been in the info gathering mode for about 3 months. I knew it wasn't gonna be an easy undertaking but I had to do something. The stock rack is complete trash. It stemmed from the tie rods being weak. When you strengthen the weakest point it transfers the load to the rack. The location of the stick rack is behind the tires and front differential. Which directs and multiplys the amount of energy transferred into the already weak and undersized stock rack.
I knew at some point I was going to turbo my Mav for the dunes. That being said, you have to have sufficient suspension, steering, and braking to support the horsepower and speed. That led me to doing all the research..... My wife claims cheating on her with my phone. A read rich hound and am always searching for more knowledge. I'm analytical and I love fabricating.

Good luck in plaster city this weekend. Nice draw on the 3rd starting spot. Go whoop some ass this weekend


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[mearsman]

These calipers?

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