Maverick broken rear axles

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
I understand what you are putting yours thru - but a big drop followed by a hard turn is different than sliding under power through rough chopped out track. We can run the dunes/ woods / huge whoops / big jumps all weekend w/o any issue - but 12 laps on the track and they get loose. Its side loading simular to a torque spike that seems to cause it. 99% if the Mavs are not driven in this manner and will never have an issue. But those of us that race this terrain are having it. The hubs in my Rhino & Teryx had a tighter spline fit - so maybe its a clearance issue with the hubs.
Our conversation has consumed me to the point that I actually had a dream about our correspondences' (correspondii? Hmm....) last night. I'll probably get conflicting responses from the "arm-chair engineers" out there, but here I go anyway:
You're right about the excessive clearance(s) between the male/female spline interface on the stock Maverick stubaxles, and the cast iron, splined drive flange that mates to it . Loosey-goosey to say the least, resulting in the condition suggested by 'AReed' regarding the "hub pivoting on the splines". In my dream, our desert Mav is competing against narrower-tracked vehicles in some fictitious and foggy arena. The visualization of that image instantly clarified the ROOT cause of your dilemma. Leverage. Specifically, the moment of inertia, and how weight transfer is inversely influenced as the distance between a force and the center of mass from which it rolls or rotates increases (inertia = mass times the distance of rotation, or the 'lever arm', squared). Although the g forces generated while cornering may be similar for both cars (the co-efficient of friction for rubber is pretty constant, so theoretically, your style of racing can impose no significant increase in lateral g-forces over ours), the amount of weight transferred to the out side tire due to stock geometry is far greater than that of a car with a modified/widened geometry. It's my assumption that, in order to be agile in the corners, the track width on your Maverick is far narrower than the 77" that I built into ours. Not to bore you with the math, but by widening our track width 6 1/2" (per side) over stock, the load (or weight transferred) on the outside wheel while cornering, is met with roughly 40% more resistance than that of a stock Maverick (not considering the increased distance between roll centers and the center of gravity of a narrower track verses ours as a result of the excessive operating angles of the un-loaded inside control arms while cornering, which further harms your cause).
Although the simple "side-loading"explanation you offered may be suffice for the lay-mans, it did not satisfy my overly analytical, obsessive and ANAL mind ! Actually, side lolading implies that the threads of the stub axle are in either 'tension' or 'compression'. You're obviosly not pulling off the inside wheel due to tension, nor shearing off the outside wheel due to compreassion. Rarely does a joint ever "push" apart. It is failing due to excessive lateral or bending loads applied as the body rolls and the weight transfers to the outside tire. This condition is aggravated by the axle torque, as well as poor manufacturing tolerances of the splined interface. While beefier , higher alloy stub axles may more effectively resist these forces, the proper solution lies in the geometry of the suspension, and its effect on the roll center locations at the front and rear of the vehicle (because you have unequal length a-arms instead of a rear trailing arm geometry of say a Polaris, your roll centers are figured differently, and conversely, move differently as the suspension travels). Springing the vehicle so the a-arms are as level to the ground as possible when entering a corner will move your roll center height closer to the ground level, rather than some dimension below it, as the OEM settings encourage. This will help reduce the weight transfer to the outside tire. The double edged sword here is softening up the effect of the spring rate during weight transfer during cornering, while leaving enough spring rate not to bottom hard off of the jumps. Even though our car weighs more than 2,000 lbs, we are able to run spring rates lower than that of cars hundreds of pounds lighter than ours. This is a direct result of the low motion ratio I designed into the mounting of our coil overs. Add to that the damping and valving diversity our Fox 2.5" internal bypass truck shocks offer, and BINGO, a well balanced race car that doesn't fail before its time! We are still fine tuning the compression valving in the last 25% of our wheel travel, and are pretty close to what I feel is the optimum setup for our car.
In conclusion, I appreciate your patient respones and input you guys have offered. It stimulated me to apply the fundamental principles I've learned over years of researching proper road racing suspension and chassis design, and how it applies to our world of long travel off-road racing geometry, to understand exactly what is happening here. It is my philosophy of design that tells me, "If I can not quantify a problem, I can gain no understanding on how to best solve it". It is why it took over 2,000 hours of time for me to design and build our current race Maverick, WITHOUT the use of "CAD" design software. But then again, we DNF'd 5 of the 6 races we entered last year, so how much clout can I really have? Ha Heee! S.Y.A.T.C. (home-made for See You At The Checkers!)
 

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
The hub is pivoting on the splines, that's what's breaking them. I've ran bigger nuts and washers with no luck. Side load is killing them.
I can lock tight the stubs and splines and back the nut off and break the cotter pin in a couple hours of trail riding every time .. It's a frustrating issue
I can say with confidence that our hub no longer "pivots upon the splines" since using the "loctite" fix. This is evidenced by the fact that, upon dis-assembly, the hub is solidly bonded to the splined stub axle, and requires a rigid puller that I had to fabricate to separate the two. Upon separation, the loctite is not powdered or broken down in any way, as "rocking" would indicate. Instead, it is still a glossy red, glass-like media that fills 100% of the spline root and must be "chipped" out using a sharp tool such as an awl or a prick punch. The loctite comes off in long shards in the shape of the splines to which it bonded. Never lost tension on a hub nut either.
It is important to remember that when tightening a brand new piece of hardware for the first time, the highest clamping force for a given torqe is obtained. Remove and re-tighten the same joint for a second time, and the clamping force applied to said joint torqued to the same value as before, decreases by as much as 20% due to the distortion in the threads, and the additional friction it causes between the threads. With each subsequent tightening of said joint using the same hub nut, stub axle, and torque value, the clamping force continues to decrease. This is a fact that I confirmed by using a carefully calibrated tool that measures the clamping force generated when tightening a given diameter hardware to 75% of its yield capacity. It was calibrated for 3/8" diameter, 180,000 lb. tensile fasteners. I purchased it for learning purposes when I built my first truck in 1989. It's called a Wilhelm/Skidmore clamping force measuring tool. Wish I had time to attend your events and see all of the details surrounding your problem. Good luck guys!
 

AReed

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Oct 2, 2012
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I wish the same exact fixes that worked for you would work everywhere else, but they dont. The last axle was brand new and was installed with the BRP "fix" and broke 2 hours into a 3 hour race. Stock width, 30" tires and very good shocks. We race in two different worlds.
 

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
I wish the same exact fixes that worked for you would work everywhere else, but they dont. The last axle was brand new and was installed with the BRP "fix" and broke 2 hours into a 3 hour race. Stock width, 30" tires and very good shocks. We race in two different worlds.
So it appears that there are only 2 practical areas to address a fix for your problem. Track width, or beefier stub axles. Apparently, a wide track width in your arena is prohibitive, so a Gorilla-type fix seems evident. I'm a huge fan of alloys and their application in automotive performance and design. At the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious here (I assume you already know the fact I'm about to disclose), I strongly advise marking the stub's rotation and sticking to it. 4340 does not respond well to stress reversals. That being said, I enjoyed the cranial excercise, and appreciated your coming along.
 

Blue Coyote

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Jul 31, 2009
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Eugene OR
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So it appears that there are only 2 practical areas to address a fix for your problem. Track width, or beefier stub axles. Apparently, a wide track width in your arena is prohibitive, so a Gorilla-type fix seems evident. I'm a huge fan of alloys and their application in automotive performance and design.

Correct - stronger outer CV's. Right now Gorilla seems to be the only option.
Second is a 4130 or equivelant outer hub (with tighter fit tolerence and will not deform) vs stock cast. Machining the hub is not that big a deal-broaching the splines is.
Right now my plan is Gorilla outer, new rear hubs and red loctite while I work out a machined rear hub.
 

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
Correct - stronger outer CV's. Right now Gorilla seems to be the only option.
Second is a 4130 or equivelant outer hub (with tighter fit tolerence and will not deform) vs stock cast. Machining the hub is not that big a deal-broaching the splines is.
Right now my plan is Gorilla outer, new rear hubs and red loctite while I work out a machined rear hub.
I assume Gorilla has been made aware of the poor interface between the OEM spline and hub. Assuming they machine their stub axles from scratch, are they increasing the major/minor spline diameters to compensate? Do you know if they are using the V.A.R. processed (300m) 4340? Just curious, that's all. You now know it is impossible to provide me with too much information :D !
 

Logan G.

Member
Feb 20, 2012
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Highland CA
I have been on the sideline watching and reading this thread since it started biting my tongue and I can now chime in and say summer brothers and I and some other can am racer have been testing and developing a fix for this problem and we designed a larger CV and axle that still works with the stock inner CV. We had a few rough drafts but with some modifying we now have something that 2 can am racers will be using at the worcs race in primm next weekend. If all goes well we should have them available for everyone by mid feb.
 
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JoeyD23

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Jan 9, 2009
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I have been on the sideline watching and reading this thread since it started biting my tongue and I can now chime in and say summer brothers and I and some other can am racer have been testing and developing a fix for this problem and we designed a larger CV and axle that still works with the stock inner CV. We had a few rough drafts but with some modifying we now have something that 2 can a racers will be using at the worcs race in primm next weekend. If all goes well we should have them available for everyone.

Well it's about time!!!
 

Blue Coyote

Member
Jul 31, 2009
254
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Eugene OR
www.NWOffroad.net
As to what Gorilla is using for material - no idea. Heard the threaded snout is .10 larger, better alloy. Also working on machining some rear hubs.

I have been on the sideline watching and reading this thread since it started biting my tongue and I can now chime in and say summer brothers and I and some other can am racer have been testing and developing a fix for this problem and we designed a larger CV and axle that still works with the stock inner CV. We had a few rough drafts but with some modifying we now have something that 2 can am racers will be using at the worcs race in primm next weekend. If all goes well we should have them available for everyone by mid feb.

That's good to hear.
Spoke with another vendor today - they have a solution they hope to release in the next few weeks.
So it looks like there will be several possible resolutions for us racers in the next 30 days.
 

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