New Honda Talon to launch Nov 27th 2018!

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
You are correct that Honda and Yamaha have differentiate themselves from the rest. Yamaha has a niche market and the 2019 version of the YXZ is not going to change that. Honda is following suit to add another option in that niche market as well.

Gear drives are a great addition and give some one a different option. Hopefully Honda's gear ratios are much better and you can actually bang those gears. The Yamaha gear ratio along with the high strung motor really did not equate to a lot of gear banging, not not very trail friendly. At least the Honda you can flip to auto mode on the trail.
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
Yamaha's 2019 entry (below; drastically lower gearing explained up to 1:30) proves that they have accomplished what needs to be just as its only competition in the 'big boy' world of geared transmissions explodes on the market. Geared drives are not a "niche" anywhere in the off road world which matters (period). Any recent fantasies that high HP belt driven UTVs will be the thinking man's future and not (already) his past were recently dashed forever with the newest Honda and Yamaha offerings.

There is nothing wrong with CVT technologies for those of us stuck with ours possibly forever.
I simply wouldn't wish that nightmare on anybody as 2019 unfolds and gear drives (finally) take their rightful place as the technology to beat.
 
Last edited:

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
Yamaha's 2019 entry (below; drastically lower gearing explained up to 1:30) proves that they have accomplished what needs to be just as its only competition in the 'big boy' world of geared transmissions explodes on the market. Geared drives are not a "niche" anywhere in the off road world which matters (period). Any recent fantasies that high HP belt driven UTVs will be the thinking man's future and not (already) his past were recently dashed forever with the newest Honda and Yamaha offerings.

There is nothing wrong with CVT technologies for those of us stuck with ours possibly forever.
I simply wouldn't wish that nightmare on anybody as 2019 unfolds and gear drives (finally) take there rightful place as the technology to beat.
The 2019 Yamaha is much better with the gear reduction, which was already available as a kit for the previous model years. They still have not addressed the shitty suspension. Which is it’s short coming along with the high strung motor that has to be in the high rpm range for the fun.

Maybe Honda will have the balls to offer a turbo model and then it will be game on.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
The 2019 Yamaha is much better with the gear reduction, which was already available as a kit for the previous model years.
I would offer that Yamaha dramatically improved their gearing to save owners $1300 while necessarily going to war with the Talon next year. Previous kits were not the same.

They still have not addressed the shitty suspension. Which is it’s short coming along with the high strung motor that has to be in the high rpm range for the fun.
The suspension has been addressed in a significant manner. Go to 3:55 in the video above (post #42)

"..Maybe Honda will have the balls to offer a turbo model and then it will be game on."
Honda's gear drive like no other (DCT) is akin to artillery softening the battlefield. Their adversaries do not possess 'waves' of significant responses somehow 'held back' for after they all shake the stupor away. You have already admitted that 104 HP is more than plenty for the average enthusiast. The 'mega turbo' 30K+ UTV 'leaders' currently drinking wine and eating caviar do not have another plan beyond riding it out. The DCT is akin to big guns on battleships. No matter how bad you want to fight this is physically impossible until you silence them by firing back at the same time. Ineffectively responding with pea shooters (aka the CVT drive) or engines stretched to their absolute failure points is not a battle plan.

2018's: ".....bbbbbbut 'turbo' is everything!" lame defense (given that no one wants to hassle with turbo power anyway) will be a surrender flag as powerful naturally aspirated engines are mated to geared drives in UTVs.

This is the future and the future is indeed here.
 
Last edited:

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
I would offer that Yamaha dramatically improved their gearing to save owners $1300 while necessarily going to war with the Talon next year. Previous kits were not the same.



The suspension has been addressed in a significant manner. Go to 3:55 in the video above (post #42)



Honda's gear drive like no other (DCT) is akin to artillery softening the battlefield. Their adversaries do not possess 'waves' of significant responses somehow 'held back' for after they all shake the stupor away. You have already admitted that 104 HP is more than plenty for the average enthusiast. The 'mega turbo' 30K+ UTV 'leaders' currently drinking wine and eating caviar do not have another plan beyond riding it out. The DCT is akin to big guns on battleships. No matter how bad you want to fight this is physically impossible until you silence them by firing back at the same time. Ineffectively responding with pea shooters (aka the CVT drive) or engines stretched to their absolute failure points is not a battle plan.

2018's: ".....bbbbbbut 'turbo' is everything!" lame defense (given that no one wants to hassle with turbo power anyway) will be a surrender flag as powerful naturally aspirated engines are mated to geared drives in UTVs.

This is the future and the future is indeed here.
You crack me up! Turbo cars are going no where and still king of the hill. Although 104hp is plenty for most it is not enough hp to make people dump a turbo car and go run and get a Honda. Nor will the gear drive (DCT). Sorry the sand crowd is not running away because Honda has a DCT 104hp car.


Yamaha’s still has a funky rear suspension and the wheelbase is still the same. Nothing has changed.

Honda at least was smart enough to got to a trailing arm set up.

Wow I guess the turbo cars are done because Honda is in the utv game. Maybe they should of called the Honda “Sliced Bread”. After all it the best thing ever to hit the market.

You don’t think Polaris or Can Am have the know how to make a geared sport SXS? Who is to say they don’t already have something up their sleeves. Oh yeah Polaris and Can Am are no where near the innovators.

Like I have said let’s see in a year if you are still touting the death of all others with the mighty 104hp Talon.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
You crack me up! Turbo cars are going no where and still king of the hill.
Nobody ever claimed that rubber band driven/over stressed/bound-to-fail-over-time-due-to-vastly-inferior-parts/construction 'turbos' were not being sold to high(er) HP seeking new owners not educated as to how gear driven machines dominate offroad for good reason (see any 'big boy' major off road racing class). You are arguing for the same owners that AirDam described:
Big monied I-don't-care-if-it-breaks types not caring about reliability, repair/maintenance issues or if they ever have to buy a Honda/Yamaha someday to replace whatever overworked screaming engine rubber band contraptions they are intrigued with at the moment.

Reread the clutch expert's story up here (Airdam's facts which you continually refuse to comment upon among countless others brought forward) explaining first hand how both Turbo engine and rubber band drive parts are sourced/shoddily manufactured while barely hanging on today as the 'gold standard' bearer or "king of the hill" that you describe.

Junk.
There is no other way to put it. No potential owner in 2019 should be expecting anything better if they cannot recognize the future while chasing HP numbers.

'Buyer beware' .....as a much more measured approach to our sport unfolds from those with conservative engineering cultures as their standard. Also beware of resale values (every current owner's REAL fear) involving overworked turbo motors/rubber band drive cars plummeting as direct drive takes center stage,

Then again, who cares about JoeSchmoe in 2019 fretting over true value versus (upcoming) obsolescence in a 20K car.
 
Last edited:

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
Nobody ever claimed that rubber band driven/over stressed/bound-to-fail-over-time-due-to-vastly-inferior-parts/construction 'turbos' were not being sold to high(er) HP seeking new owners not educated as to how gear driven machines dominate offroad for good reason (see any 'big boy' major off road racing class). You are arguing for the same owners that AirDam described:
Big monied I-don't-care-if-it-breaks types not caring about reliability, repair/maintenance issues or if they ever have to buy a Honda/Yamaha someday to replace whatever overworked screaming engine rubber band contraptions they are intrigued with at the moment.

Reread the clutch expert's story up here (Airdam's facts which you continually refuse to comment upon among countless others brought forward) explaining first hand how both Turbo engine and rubber band drive parts are sourced/shoddily manufactured while barely hanging on today as the 'gold standard' bearer or "king of the hill" that you describe.

Junk.
There is no other way to put it. No potential owner in 2019 should be expecting anything better if they cannot recognize the future while chasing HP numbers.

'Buyer beware' as a much more measured approach to our sport unfolds and the resale value (every current owner's REAL fear) of overworked motors/rubber band drives plummets. :(

Then again, who cares about JoeSchmoe worrying about value over obsolescence.
I disagree that the parts are shoddy on the clutches. If you do some maintenance (take the clutch cover off and blow out the clutches with an air hose) they last a long time. My XP1000 went 5,000 miles before I had to replace the primary clutch (dunes and desert miles). Blew one belt at 2400ish miles (which included several times towing others back to camp). The Can Am clutches are fully rebuildable. Currently just under 2500 miles on my X3. Have not blown a belt (lots of sand dunes miles, Baja and open desert riding). I inspect my clutches and blows them out after every trip.

Those that blow belts constantly are doing so because they mash the right foot down when they should not be doing it (talking outside a race environment). These are the same people that will soon be showing you the DCT set up is not bullet proof.

I have logged lots of miles and with the various groups I ride with it is very rare that we have to stop because they have to change a belt. In the last 9 years I think maybe a handful of times.

Polaris uses cheap bearings in their transmissions, which means you should be changing our diff fluids more often. Not sure if they used better quality stuff in the turbo drive train.

This is where the Japanese companies do not cheap out. They use quality bearings.

Can Am drive train appears to be holding up. I know the X3 has some issues with the 2017 models having some bolts on backing out in the front diff.

Your fancy BMWs, Mercedes and many other auto manufacturers source cheap parts. Even the Japanese get parts that come from Mexico or China. It is the nature of the global economy.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

jajl22

Active Member
Jun 5, 2015
673
185
43
37
What other "big boy" off road racing class had a choice between a gear driven transmission and another style?
I can't think of any, curious as to what you are referring to.

I have always been a Honda fan, rode a 250R for most of my dune life, had a Rhino for hunting....Also loved Yamaha and their motocross bikes, road a YZ250 and YZ450F.

I wanted so bad for Honda to release something that would blow the Turbo S, or the X3 out of the water...and know they most certainly have the ability, I just don't think they want to take the risk...I know on paper the Talon looks like a great rig, and Honda has been more then forth coming with all of the specs and info (except price and HP) but for the Dunes with the said 104HP it just won't be on the same level as the other 2 flagship models...same thing with the Wildcat XX...it is a great design, has all of the makings of a great vehicle and the suspension works as advertised for a 64" model, it just doesn't have the power to deliver the same fun factor that the X3 or Turbo S can.

Power and Suspension is what it comes down to for Sand/Desert riding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sand shark

///Airdam Clutches

Active Member
Nov 14, 2014
358
176
43
the majority of the crowd on this forum is west coast, dunes and desert. bigger tires are king, they pull harder in the dunes and ride smoother in the rough stuff. a CVT is a lot more forgiving because of how it can be "tricked" to stay in a lower gear ratio longer to help churn the bigger tires, ALL THE WHILE, staying at peak RPM for peak power so every second you are in the throttle its pumping out peak HP if the clutch is calibrated properly to hold RPM under loads. you put a set of 30s on a yamaha and hit the sand dunes, and you no longer are able to blast thru the dunes in 4th gear , you are jamming 2nd gear at the rev limiter hoping to have the power to climb the dunes at a whopping 25mph while the guys in a reflashed X3 with stock everything and 32s are wide open at peak power never bogging and climbing hills at 45+mph.

a small power NA car with set gears isnt gonna ever be as fast and give the fun factor for the guys looking for a thrill ride. it sucks to watch your buddies walk away from you when you are beating on your machine like a rental full throttle and the buddies are walking away from you. double the HP and better suspension and bigger tires, you cant and wont ever overcome those hurdles. half the power, half the suspension, and 4" smaller tire. you can put the best racer you have ever met in the seat and he wont be able to keep up with a slightly modded stock X3 or TurboRZR.

above you said something about how i "try to fix" the clutches, i dont try, i do fix them. i am the best on the market at building them better.

also, you said how the yamaha is better faster and shifting gears is better. i dont doubt you might think that. seems like you dislike the belt so much that you are wanting to jump ship ASAP for something that you deem better but it also seems you are worried about resale values on your now used and clapped out machine. you ever priced a lexus, mercedes, cadillac, BMW? please for the fun of it google "worst resale values by brands" you might be surprised that the best cars, with the highest price tags, have the worst resale. you should know that lexus is built by toyota, awesome standards, some models built exclusively in japan, the best of the best of everything. i owned a Lexus ISF for 11 months and lost $13,000 when i tried to trade it in. paid my notes and was still upside down -$13,000 in less than a year. on the 10 worst resale list i believe cadillac has 2 or 3 models.... wonder why? the flagship of quality and luxury from GM, how is their resale the worst? its just how it is, and your machine is worth half what you paid for it. sorry thats just how things go sometimes no matter how expensive they start out.

two customers of mine, race trophy trucks in Lucas and Torc and UTVs for fun at local series and GNCC. they were in Polaris XP1000 and i had them fixed up, they were fast and if the machine made it to the finish line they were 1-2 every race. they are pro racers and you pretty much cant touch them. one of them holds the track record at my place and when he set it he was nearly 7 seconds faster than the next fastest guy. thats pretty blazing. when the yamaha came out, both built a yamaha, they did the oil mods for the trans, the clutch packs, the gears, they did everything you gotta do to make it fast and reliable, they had penske work on the shocks, E2R, Fox, they had everybody work on the shocks and they were never happy with the suspension yet they continued to race them for a solid year.... or one of them held on to a year the other parked his midway thru the year and went back to his polaris. neither ever won anything, matter of fact i saw at one race, one of the guys getting lapped by a modded RZR900. how is this so? because the suspension, gearing, and steering are not exactly ideal for some forms of riding and racing. these endurance races racing thru woods courses and mixed with short courses in fields, the yamaha was only in the peak power at a small portion of the engine RPM band, you are constantly shifting trying to keep it in the sweet spot, and you are so busy shifting you cant hold onto the wheel and drive like you want (yes the new paddle shift models fix this) but they still no matter what were never happy with the suspension and could never ever drive them as fast as the XP1000. eventually they both went back to XP1000, one raced and won GNCC this year in XP1000 and also raced an X3 in a local series. for the winnings at GNCC championship he won a new polaris and when asked if he was gonna build it, he said nope... gonna sell it and use the money to buy an X3. both of those guys are now in X3 at local series. you are not gonna get a power hungry go-fast guy to hop in a machine with half the power.

you watched the honda launch vid? looks like brokeback mountain remade. i think the honda launch vid was made for the millenials twenty-thirty somethings lookin to get off fortnite and into offroad for real. i mean.... a random guy driving thru the trails, and some other random guy runs up and acts like a total nerd and you pick up said passerby and go riding off into the sunset together. i dont think this machine is made for the manly man, more like the brokeback mountain men.

 
  • Like
Reactions: sand shark

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
the majority of the crowd on this forum is west coast, dunes and desert. bigger tires are king, they pull harder in the dunes and ride smoother in the rough stuff. a CVT is a lot more forgiving because of how it can be "tricked" to stay in a lower gear ratio longer to help churn the bigger tires, ALL THE WHILE, staying at peak RPM for peak power so every second you are in the throttle its pumping out peak HP if the clutch is calibrated properly to hold RPM under loads. you put a set of 30s on a yamaha and hit the sand dunes, and you no longer are able to blast thru the dunes in 4th gear , you are jamming 2nd gear at the rev limiter hoping to have the power to climb the dunes at a whopping 25mph while the guys in a reflashed X3 with stock everything and 32s are wide open at peak power never bogging and climbing hills at 45+mph.

a small power NA car with set gears isnt gonna ever be as fast and give the fun factor for the guys looking for a thrill ride. it sucks to watch your buddies walk away from you when you are beating on your machine like a rental full throttle and the buddies are walking away from you. double the HP and better suspension and bigger tires, you cant and wont ever overcome those hurdles. half the power, half the suspension, and 4" smaller tire. you can put the best racer you have ever met in the seat and he wont be able to keep up with a slightly modded stock X3 or TurboRZR.

above you said something about how i "try to fix" the clutches, i dont try, i do fix them. i am the best on the market at building them better.

also, you said how the yamaha is better faster and shifting gears is better. i dont doubt you might think that. seems like you dislike the belt so much that you are wanting to jump ship ASAP for something that you deem better but it also seems you are worried about resale values on your now used and clapped out machine. you ever priced a lexus, mercedes, cadillac, BMW? please for the fun of it google "worst resale values by brands" you might be surprised that the best cars, with the highest price tags, have the worst resale. you should know that lexus is built by toyota, awesome standards, some models built exclusively in japan, the best of the best of everything. i owned a Lexus ISF for 11 months and lost $13,000 when i tried to trade it in. paid my notes and was still upside down -$13,000 in less than a year. on the 10 worst resale list i believe cadillac has 2 or 3 models.... wonder why? the flagship of quality and luxury from GM, how is their resale the worst? its just how it is, and your machine is worth half what you paid for it. sorry thats just how things go sometimes no matter how expensive they start out.

two customers of mine, race trophy trucks in Lucas and Torc and UTVs for fun at local series and GNCC. they were in Polaris XP1000 and i had them fixed up, they were fast and if the machine made it to the finish line they were 1-2 every race. they are pro racers and you pretty much cant touch them. one of them holds the track record at my place and when he set it he was nearly 7 seconds faster than the next fastest guy. thats pretty blazing. when the yamaha came out, both built a yamaha, they did the oil mods for the trans, the clutch packs, the gears, they did everything you gotta do to make it fast and reliable, they had penske work on the shocks, E2R, Fox, they had everybody work on the shocks and they were never happy with the suspension yet they continued to race them for a solid year.... or one of them held on to a year the other parked his midway thru the year and went back to his polaris. neither ever won anything, matter of fact i saw at one race, one of the guys getting lapped by a modded RZR900. how is this so? because the suspension, gearing, and steering are not exactly ideal for some forms of riding and racing. these endurance races racing thru woods courses and mixed with short courses in fields, the yamaha was only in the peak power at a small portion of the engine RPM band, you are constantly shifting trying to keep it in the sweet spot, and you are so busy shifting you cant hold onto the wheel and drive like you want (yes the new paddle shift models fix this) but they still no matter what were never happy with the suspension and could never ever drive them as fast as the XP1000. eventually they both went back to XP1000, one raced and won GNCC this year in XP1000 and also raced an X3 in a local series. for the winnings at GNCC championship he won a new polaris and when asked if he was gonna build it, he said nope... gonna sell it and use the money to buy an X3. both of those guys are now in X3 at local series. you are not gonna get a power hungry go-fast guy to hop in a machine with half the power.

you watched the honda launch vid? looks like brokeback mountain remade. i think the honda launch vid was made for the millenials twenty-thirty somethings lookin to get off fortnite and into offroad for real. i mean.... a random guy driving thru the trails, and some other random guy runs up and acts like a total nerd and you pick up said passerby and go riding off into the sunset together. i dont think this machine is made for the manly man, more like the brokeback mountain men.

Now you are really going to get him going.
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
I disagree that the parts are shoddy on the clutches.
Then buck up and argue your point with the previous poster in this thread making a living fixing them...not me.
I'll make it easy for you: Post #19 from
http://www.airdamclutches.com

The pain-in-the-arse CVT maintenance videos listed in Post #9 got the same "yeah, but we don't want to talk about that..." treatment.
Selective ignorance.
 

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
Then buck up and argue your point with the previous poster in this thread making a living fixing them...not me.
I'll make it easy for you: Post #19 from
http://www.airdamclutches.com

The pain-in-the-arse CVT maintenance videos listed in Post #9 got the same "yeah, but we don't want to talk about that..." treatment.
Selective ignorance.
Why don’t you read my previous post where I explain my experience.
The CVT is not a pain in the ass. It is quite simple and easy to maintain.

Plain and simple the clutches will last. My XP1000 clutch lasted 5000 miles. Why because I took the time to blow them out after each trip and inspect them. I have blown 1 belts in 9 years of ownership of UTVs. Over those 9 years on a ride maybe handful of times were the rides stopped because someone blew a belt.

What do you expect a person that makes a living tuning clutches to say about OEM parts? That goes for anyone selling aftermarket parts. How are the suppose to make a living if they can’t improve an OEM part or at least claim to make it better. Airdam is a clutch guru and that is why so many seek him out.

You have offered nothing but speculation. The Yamaha is a prime example that a majority don’t mind the CVT set up. If the majority hated the CVT set up the sales of the Yamaha would be a lot more and I would not see dealers advertising blow out prices on brand new 2017 and 2018 YXZs.

After the initial rush when Honda has them at the dealer, I expect the sales to be very similar to the Yamaha and might actually take sales away from Yamaha. The Honda at least looks like the suspension will be good.

Until they offer a model with HP close to the X3 or Turbo XP, most out west that ride in the dunes will give 2 shits about the Honda and it’s reliability. Guess what all the current offerings of sport SXSs have reliable motors. Rotax motors are right up there with the Japanese stuff.

So if you think that you can drive the Honda with reckless abandon and shit is not going to break because they are so much better, have at it and let us know how that works out.

Off-road toys requires maintenance period!!! It don’t matter if it is a 1 million dollar trophy truck or a $5,000 SXS. These are not cars we drive on the street. These are offroad toys that see various harsh conditions.

Honda reliability is so amazing why do the dealers even bother with a service department? Nobody will ever be there getting stuff done.

If you hate your current SXS so much and it is a POS, then sell it and go get your Honda. I will still wave at you on the trail and go riding with you. I don’t care what you drive.

Honda has provided the public with another choice. It will be a fine car. I have no interest in getting one because it is severely under powered for the riding I like to do.

Maybe you should go drive the new Turbo S or Can Am X3 RS and see why so many love the turbo cars and maybe you will get a better understanding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
"... Although 104hp is plenty for most it is not enough hp to make people dump a turbo car and go run and get a Honda. Nor will the gear drive (DCT). Sorry the sand crowd is not running away because Honda has a DCT 104hp car....
As has been posted out numerous times, the only present owners currently "dumping" 20K-30K+ cars with crappy resale value in this relatively new market are those not studying the meat and potatoes (average JoeSchmoe) 2019 market for long term reliability, proven quality or much easier maintenance and value. I will go out o a limb even further to offer that "the sand crowd" is not moving the family budget around every few years to chase HP numbers. Honda is now offering all of us (the left coast not being Xanadu necessarily) a completely different driving experience in a relatively maintenance free platform. There is another world just over that mountain where that sun rises and there is one manufacturer who will build a machine for you no matter wherever you ride (the Talon).

Yamaha’s still has a funky rear suspension and the wheelbase is still the same. Nothing has changed.

Honda at least was smart enough to got to a trailing arm set up.

[/QUOTE]Wow I guess the turbo cars are done because Honda is in the utv game. Maybe they should of called the Honda “Sliced Bread”. After all it the best thing ever to hit the market. [/QUOTE]

Nobody ever said that the turbo was dead. What mostly younger folks are just now starting to realize is that one does not need to overwork your power plant. If you are continually chasing HP numbers with rubber band setups you will (eventually) reap what you sow. Sliced bread was popular as it did the work for you. Honda is saying the same thing with their grin producing exclusive DCT transmission while throwing in a whole lot more to the mix.

"You don’t think Polaris or Can Am have the know how to make a geared sport SXS? Who is to say they don’t already have something up their sleeves. Oh yeah Polaris and Can Am are no where near the innovators.
Why would any of these rubber band manufacturers need to "innovate" when selling rubber bands is (currently) so popular? Polaris/CanAm innovations no where near equalling Honda's over the same period of time in pure engineering terms alone across the board? Yeah, you could say that. Let's just say that anything up anyone's sleeves at the moment had better be played rather quickly.
"Innovating" as a "MeToo" rubber band technology shop is not going to be much fun moving forward.

"...Like I have said let’s see in a year if you are still touting the death of all others with the mighty 104hp Talon.
The UTV market will soon shake out (see the current craft brew bubble based on the exact same ridiculousness). Whether this is (likely, imo) less than a year away or not, Honda's willingness to invest in a quality car at this juncture will hopefully not birth the next Odyssey.
Anybody taking that leap in 2019 is one heck of a lot more certain of falling on their feet than any UTV owner since.

Drivetrains matter. Even more so when one is having more fun than the other guy driving them.
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
"...What other "big boy" off road racing class had a choice between a gear driven transmission and another style?
I can't think of any, curious as to what you are referring to.
Having the choice wasn't the point and I never said that there ever was one in any other class. I was referring to Yamaha and now Honda proving that the future is (now) the past in even much more lightly built cars. The naysayers are coming back with their typical 'overstating the fact' nonsense involving the death of the CVT (period) ; how rubber band drives are quality built/easy to maintain/never fail and how great turbos are (period).
The fact that they refuse to comment on the time, tools, money and effort needed to deal with the videos posted previously says it all. "Blowing out" CVTs is no different than sticking an 85 gallon compressor hose (the minimum size needed to 'blow out' anything) inside your house and then telling you wife afterwards that the house is clean. It sure does appear that way when evil is forced in to another wear producing crevice or out of sight. Nothing I like better than blindly holding my breath/closing my eyes and creating a dust storm of who knows what around me to no discernible end.

"...I wanted so bad for Honda to release something that would blow the Turbo S, or the X3 out of the water...and know they most certainly have the ability, I just don't think they want to take the risk...I know on paper the Talon looks like a great rig, and Honda has been more then forth coming with all of the specs and info (except price and HP) but for the Dunes with the said 104HP it just won't be on the same level as the other 2 flagship models...same thing with the Wildcat XX...it is a great design, has all of the makings of a great vehicle and the suspension works as advertised for a 64" model, it just doesn't have the power to deliver the same fun factor that the X3 or Turbo S can.

Power and Suspension is what it comes down to for Sand/Desert riding.
As you already know, we were lucky to get a sport sxs out of Honda in the first place for 2019. There is no way that they were going to release a 30K+ car in to a luxury offroad market during the sham/scam of our current worldwide (general) market. If we all survive the next year or so and the Talon sells despite all the current "swing your penis around or go home" HP crap Honda will 'probably' up their game. Yet to claim (which you did not) that everybody out their with 100HP NA cars isn't having a ton of fun already borders on arrogance, in my opinion. Most of the guys claiming this are at least on their 2nd cars from not even 5 years ago. This isn't the average sand, dune, desert, trail or even family-that-rarely-gets-to-ride-but-dreams-of-it enthusiast nor will it ever be.

Honda is after both the real and surreal markets if the latter presents itself. Betting on the latter since 2014 was about as foolish then as it is now. Moving forward, I would gamble on the solidly built machine with a historically solid reputation (which hasn't been possible previously) and ignore the hype as to what 'works' anywhere. Drive a DCT versus a rubber band and ask yourself which you would rather have when your buddies aren't necessarily an influence...which will be soon if you live long enough, believe me. ;)
 
Last edited:

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
"...you watched the honda launch vid? looks like brokeback mountain remade. i think the honda launch vid was made for the millenials twenty-thirty somethings lookin to get off fortnite and into offroad for real. i mean.... a random guy driving thru the trails, and some other random guy runs up and acts like a total nerd and you pick up said passerby and go riding off into the sunset together. i dont think this machine is made for the manly man, more like the brokeback mountain men."
Some of you folks out there on the left coast certainly have a different way of looking at things.
Perhaps this is why meaningful discussion involving 'average' UTV owners has been so elusive.

I always thought that Honda's ad campaigns were pretty lame (see their most recent ones with the $6 million dollar man, etc) yet when the Talon's marketing is equated with the above(?)...they must be doing something right to trigger fear and loathing as well.

I thought that you folk were kinda 'live and let live' out there?
 

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
As has been posted out numerous times, the only present owners currently "dumping" 20K-30K+ cars with crappy resale value in this relatively new market are those not studying the meat and potatoes (average JoeSchmoe) 2019 market for long term reliability, proven quality or much easier maintenance and value. I will go out o a limb even further to offer that "the sand crowd" is not moving the family budget around every few years to chase HP numbers. Honda is now offering all of us (the left coast not being Xanadu necessarily) a completely different driving experience in a relatively maintenance free platform. There is another world just over that mountain where that sun rises and there is one manufacturer who will build a machine for you no matter wherever you ride (the Talon).

Yamaha’s still has a funky rear suspension and the wheelbase is still the same. Nothing has changed.

Honda at least was smart enough to got to a trailing arm set up.
Wow I guess the turbo cars are done because Honda is in the utv game. Maybe they should of called the Honda “Sliced Bread”. After all it the best thing ever to hit the market. [/QUOTE]

Nobody ever said that the turbo was dead. What mostly younger folks are just now starting to realize is that one does not need to overwork your power plant. If you are continually chasing HP numbers with rubber band setups you will (eventually) reap what you sow. Sliced bread was popular as it did the work for you. Honda is saying the same thing with their grin producing exclusive DCT transmission while throwing in a whole lot more to the mix.



Why would any of these rubber band manufacturers need to "innovate" when selling rubber bands is (currently) so popular? Polaris/CanAm innovations no where near equalling Honda's over the same period of time in pure engineering terms alone across the board? Yeah, you could say that. Let's just say that anything up anyone's sleeves at the moment had better be played rather quickly.
"Innovating" as a "MeToo" rubber band technology shop is not going to be much fun moving forward.



The UTV market will soon shake out (see the current craft brew bubble based on the exact same ridiculousness). Whether this is (likely, imo) less than a year away or not, Honda's willingness to invest in a quality car at this juncture will hopefully not birth the next Odyssey.
Anybody taking that leap in 2019 is one heck of a lot more certain of falling on their feet than any UTV owner since.

Drivetrains matter. Even more so when one is having more fun than the other guy driving them.[/QUOTE]

Nobody said the Talon would not be to fun to drive. Of course it will be fun drive. Most people are just disappointed in the hp number. Lots in the sand crowd were hoping for something in the 125hp range.


I think you forget that Polaris is really the innovators of the whole sport SXS market. Without the XP900 and then the XP1000 their would be no Honda Talon. Polaris may not be pushing the drivetrain (no-rubber band), but they have brought a lot to the the table. Anyone else offering electronic compression damping shocks? Anyone have the ride command set up?

You are discounting the other manufactures because they have not gone away from the rubber band.

No Polaris and Can Am don’t have a formula one teams and formula one engineers. Nor are they an automotive manufacturer.

Polaris, Can Am and Textron have desert race teams and other teams in other areas of offroad racing. These teams help them develop better and more durable offroad products for the consumers. It trickles down whether you believe it or not.

The Talon will sell for sure. The trail version is a perfect car for that type of stuff. I bet they sell a lot more of the trail version than the sport version.

It sounds like to me you don’t want to do any maintenance on your car, if removing a clutch cover and blowing out the clutches is too much. I think you are fooling yourself if you think the Honda will be basically maintenance free. These are not quads.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
You miss the point (again) whether it continually be on purpose or not:
NOBODY WANTS TO GET ON THEIR KNESS AND STICK A 150# PRESSURE (MINIMUM) AIR NOZZLE INSIDE A CLUTCH COVER HOUSING WHILE BLINDLY PULLING THE TRIGGER PRAYING THAT ABRASIVE PARTICLES DON'T SIMPLY MIGRATE FROM ONE WEAR SURFACE TO THE OTHER OR INDEED BE DRIVEN IN TO OTHER WEAR SENSITIVE CREVICES.

Nobody wants to lug around a compressor that can't possibly produce the volume or pressure required to do even a half-arse job 'maintaining' or blowing out tiny rubber pieces after failure...

...and finally....

Nobody wants to be bothered with any one of the pain-in-the-arse-with-special-tools-required time consuming/kuckle busting videos in post #9 as THEY ARE THE THE CVT OWNER'S REALITY.

Big Boy Drives for Big Boy Toys (get it?)
 
Last edited:

It'sYourLegacy

Banned Por Vida
Mar 29, 2015
371
21
18
...the myth being propagated here is that one merely heads out of Harbor Freight with the cheapest compressor they carry...points it at their cvt housing like some kind of magic wand...and...waalahh!...sparklier than Mr. Clean's white arse.

When a preventative maintenance program for your 20K+ car's drivetrain consists of that myth and a prayer...you're in trouble.
 

sand shark

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2009
1,866
255
83
West Hills, CA
You miss the point (again) whether it continually be on purpose or not:
NOBODY WANTS TO GET ON THEIR KNESS AND STICK A 150# PRESSURE (MINIMUM) AIR NOZZLE INSIDE A CLUTCH COVER HOUSING WHILE BLINDLY PULLING THE TRIGGER PRAYING THAT ABRASIVE PARTICLES DON'T SIMPLY MIGRATE FROM ONE WEAR SURFACE TO THE OTHER OR INDEED BE DRIVEN IN TO OTHER WEAR SENSITIVE CREVICES.

Nobody wants to lug around a compressor that can't possibly produce the volume or pressure required to do a half-are job of the above either....

...and finally....

Nobody wants to be bothered with any one of the pain-in-the-arse-with-special-tools-required time consuming/kuckle busting videos in post #9 as THEY ARE THE THE CVT OWNER'S REALITY.

Big Boy Drives for Big Boy Toys (get it?)
So you do not know how to operate an air compression and air nozzle? You act like it is some difficult task. You blow out the clutches to remove what dust is in there and gives you a chance to give to look at your belt. This is about as basic of a task as you can get. Guess what the clutches do come out nice a clean. I am not saying you need to do this after every ride when you are out on a multiple day trip. You do it when you get home before you wash your car.

You act like there is so much more maintenance involved when there really is not. I change my oil and diff fluids around every 1500 miles and blow out my clutches after a trip and wash the car. When washing and drying the car I will give the car a look over to see if anything looks out of place. Pretty much the same for almost every person I know that owns a SXS.

As to all those videos you posted those are very informative and Todd at Hunterworks does a nice job. Those are how to repair videos or how to change out parts. You act like all the videos must be done on a weekly basis. The clutches have wear parts, which some wear quicker than others. With the Polaris clutches it is much easier to buy a new primary then to do one of the rebuild kits. The reason is the available rebuild kits don't last. The Can Am clutches you can rebuild and replace wear items much easier. The clutches last after rebuild. I am not familiar with the Wildcat XX clutch set up, but I imagine it is similar to the Polaris as they both use Team Industry clutches.

What specialty tool(s) will be needed to take apart the DCT transmission when it needs to be repaired or serviced? There are wear parts in that set up as well.

Yes big boys drive big boy toys. Big boys no how to do some basic maintenance and don't bitch about doing said maintenance (get it?).

When you get your Honda Talon please let us know what the owners guide says about maintenance.

Here is some nice reading for your . Hopefully Honda will not have these issues like they did with the Pioneer in the beginning.

https://hondasxs.com/threads/transmission-problems.8877/

https://hondasxs.com/threads/honda-pioneer-1000-clutch-replacement-a-how-to-guide.6591/

http://www.hondaprokevin.com/honda-...improvement-kit-campaign-sxs-utv-side-by-side

https://www.hondapioneerforum.com/forum/honda-pioneer-1000-tech-talk/31410-clutch-dct-issues.html

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/blo...-sxs10003-201617-pioneer-1000-clutch-slipping

I guess Honda in not impervious to recalls:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2018/a...highway-vehicles-due-to-fire-and-burn-hazards

http://www.hondaprokevin.com/honda-pioneer-1000-recall-stop-sale-muffler-heat-shield

https://powersportsbusiness.com/new...lls-65k-pioneer-1000-utvs-due-to-fire-hazard/
 

Members online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
17,088
Messages
179,055
Members
11,828
Latest member
DoormanMN