Red Lands Racing/Motive Engineering BITD build

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
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Pleasant Grove, UT
I'll go out on a limb and say 290-315#
I bet you are really good at telling women that they don't look fat!:D haha

Did you actually measure the bump steer, Reid? Because even without the dial indicator on my set up you could visually see the variation with very little movement of the suspension. It could very from car to car and side to side as well. There is so much slop in the pivot points I wouldn't be surprised to see very loose tolerances in rack placement. The pivot point bolts alone had around 1/16" slop in the holes and not to mention threads riding in the bracket portion. All details to be improved on.
 

NIKAL

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May 13, 2012
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The pivot point bolts alone had around 1/16" slop in the holes and not to mention threads riding in the bracket portion. All details to be improved on.
This is something I dont think most know or understand. I see this all the time, and I see this on top quality cars too. I always understood the basics about nuts & bolts, but until I got a Bolt company as a sponsor, did I really learn & understand hardware.

So many measure and think the bracket needs a 3 inch long bolt, because they are measuring total length, not bolt shank and where it is going to be positioned in that bracket or arm. I cant tell you how many custom bolts we have cut down & made to give us the perfect shank to fit the location. Also is the bolt in a shear location or a pull location?

I've seen guys spend big money on hardware and think just because they bought the best "Top Lock" nut (some call them, me included, call them pinch nuts) that they can use them over & over. Same with a Nylock. There is allot to be learned in regards to hardware.

IMO the driver is one of the smallest parts of being a successful team. Even Equipment is not #1. IMO Prep & the team is #1. I dont care if you have Jimco or Gieser build you a $100K + UTV. If you dont understand prep and if you dont have the team to back it, then you will probably fail 85% of the time.
 

COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
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I bet you are really good at telling women that they don't look fat!:D haha

Did you actually measure the bump steer, Reid? Because even without the dial indicator on my set up you could visually see the variation with very little movement of the suspension. It could very from car to car and side to side as well. There is so much slop in the pivot points I wouldn't be surprised to see very loose tolerances in rack placement. The pivot point bolts alone had around 1/16" slop in the holes and not to mention threads riding in the bracket portion. All details to be improved on.
i have measured bumpsteer to be 2.1/4" on the stock car but with measured 29" diameter tires, throughout the entire suspension travel. I measured at the front and rear of the tire. I added my Cognito heavy duty tie rod kit and got rid of 1/4", so it went down to 2" of bump steer. I was worried it was going to go the other way. Remember 2" of bump steer the way i measured it is only 1" front and 1" rear, which is really only 1/2" at the front of each tire. I didnt think that was too bad.
 

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
I bet you are really good at telling women that they don't look fat!:D haha

Did you actually measure the bump steer, Reid? Because even without the dial indicator on my set up you could visually see the variation with very little movement of the suspension. It could very from car to car and side to side as well. There is so much slop in the pivot points I wouldn't be surprised to see very loose tolerances in rack placement. The pivot point bolts alone had around 1/16" slop in the holes and not to mention threads riding in the bracket portion. All details to be improved on.
No measurements. I was in somebody's shop last week that just took delivery of 2 brand new XP 1000's, so I took the liberty to look it over a bit. I walked up and pushed down on the front and rear bumpers, watching the tires as I did so. Compared to a stock Maverick, it looked pretty good. I know, it's not too scientific coming from me. I should clarify that when I refer to bump steer, I am referring to the amount that one tire toes out (or in I guess if it's a rear steer) from static when the suspension bumps or droops. From ride height, I guess I compressed the suspension 3" or so. I'm sure if I actually cycled it, the bump steer would rear its ugly head in the last inch or two of both the bump and droop extents.

Do plan to keep the rear steer layout in your build, and if so, how much Ackermann do you plan to dial in, if any? I'm somewhat curious regarding your take on Ackermann steering, and how relevant you think it is to our sport. If I'm building a trophy truck, I would think that negative Ackermann is more suitable to the higher speeds and higher slip angles on the outside tire. When converting our car to a front steer, I dialed in the standard amount of positive Ackermann (projecting from the center line of the rear diff, through the front steering axis) due to the lower speeds we are dealing with. It is always a challenge in rear steer layouts to achieve a usable amount of positive Ackermann with out suffering from bump steer.

I have a million questions about your build, but I will wait like the rest of the onlookers must, until you cross those bridges.
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
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Pleasant Grove, UT
Standard hardware has a very long threaded portion with limited lengths. AN bolts can be ordered by 1/8" increments on the shank. Also the diameter tolerances are so much better. There is just something right about sliding an AN bolt into a REAMED hole. Drilling or punching will always produce and out of round or inconsistent size. A great source to buy and even learn about proper hardware usage is Aircraft Spruce. There is also Carroll Smiths book.

I have always wondered why people measure bump steer as a length when it should be an angular measurement. There should be a quick cross reference on commercial bump steer gauges to convert the lineal to angular. As you mentioned, tire size means something when going as a length. On my gauge I was getting approximately .1" (1 rotation of the dial) per inch of travel but that was only 7" or so from the center of the hub. I would not call that insignificant.

IMHO ackerman should be as close to 100% as possible on anything that does not need to get heat in the tires quickly for a short amount of time (qualifying) or is drifting at full lock. Reid, is your rack inline with the tie rods or is there an angle between them? Any angle and you can not simply draw a straight line to the center of the rear diff (assuming your CVs are inline with the wheel, a favorite mod of yours:D) Its the angle between the steering arm and the tie rod that determines ackerman.
 
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badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Jamul
As far as the factory using the wrong bolt for the application, I'm sure it was a bean counters decision and not an engineers. Standard hardware has a very long threaded portion with limited lengths. AN bolts can be ordered by 1/8" increments on the shank. Also the diameter tolerances are so much better. There is just something right about sliding an AN bolt into a REAMED hole. Drilling or punching will always produce and out of round or inconsistent size. A great source to buy and even learn about proper hardware usage is Aircraft Spruce. There is also Carroll Smiths book.

I have always wondered why people measure bump steer as a length when it should be an angular measurement. There should be a quick cross reference on commercial bump steer gauges to convert the lineal to angular. As you mentioned, tire size means something when going as a length. On my gauge I was getting approximately .1" (1 rotation of the dial) per inch of travel but that was only 7" or so from the center of the hub. I would not call that insignificant.

IMHO ackerman should be as close to 100% as possible on anything that does not need to get heat in the tires quickly for a short amount of time (qualifying) or is drifting at full lock. Reid, is your rack inline with the tie rods or is there an angle between them? Any angle and you can not simply draw a straight line to the center of the rear diff (assuming your CVs are inline with the wheel, a favorite mod of yours:D) Its the angle between the steering arm and the tie rod that determines ackerman.
I suppose the reason that I quantify the value of bump steer as a distance and not a degree is because that is how the Manufacturers spec it out (at least it was 25 years ago. I've been away for awhile!)

Regarding the layout of our chassis, our rack is mounted dead nuts in alignment with the steering knuckles when the wheels are pointed straight ahead, so the tie rods are perpendicular to the wheelbase and parallel to the gear rack before turning the steering wheel. I also relocated both the front and rear diff's for proper alignment with the outer stub axles, which I moved fore and aft (respectively) to maximize stability and maintain a desirable weight bias. Add to that, extensive spindle modifications, and the results of my efforts are that I have reliably achieved 19+ inches of vertical wheel travel (in the rear. 18+ in the front) using bone stock, factory cv joints with +5 1/2 & +6" Summers Brothers 4340 axles. It has definitely paid off. The cv's that we changed out prior to this years Baja 500 had over 1,200 hard race miles on them with only one re-greasing (Swepco 101), and on a vehicle weighing more than a thousand pounds over the Ute in which they were intended for, without a single failure I might add. They were still in excellent condition when we replaced them, and were only replaced because we are leading the points, and one cannot over prepare if they hope to finish every mile of every race up front, in a given season. I suppose that there is a useful service life for every component on our car. That was also taken into consideration. :)rolleyes:There I go boasting again. The competition hates that!:mad:, but we've earned the right )

I am by the way, aware of the parameters needed in order to achieve proper Ackermann steering by using such a lay mans method of simply connecting the dots from the center of the rear axle, through the steering axis, then into (or through, in the case of a rear steer) the outer tie rod end, but I do appreciate you pointing that fact out, as not to mislead the armchair engineers (of which, I am one) who will undoubtedly be keeping a watchful eye on your thread. Just as I offer useful tips and information, I hope to receive some as well, and it appears that the aggregate of experience, education, and knowledge amongst your team members will most likely assure that I do.
 

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motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
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Pleasant Grove, UT
Thanks for the pictures. I've read though all your threads on your build and most of the pictures are gone. I assumed Marc made you take them down. I assumed you would know the effects of not keeping the rack and tie rods in line. Fortunately for you, you were able to place the steering on the same plane as the upper arm and maintain a straight tie rod.

With our build I would have to push the wheels forward (I already have enough wheel base) or the steering arms would have have to be pushed even deeper in the wheels. Did you have to run a 15" to clear your steering arm?

I will be running a centerload rack with a spreader bar. With the traditional swept back A arm it will be better to run the rack inside the frame rails with the pivots between the upper and lower a arm pivots. A replaceable spreader bar make it very easy to adjust bump steer without moving the rack.
 

motive

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Jan 12, 2014
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Pleasant Grove, UT


Teaser shot! You can also follow my instagram @motive_engineering or #redlandsracing

Edit: teams instagram will be @redlandsutvracing. Ryan is really trying out this social media stuff!!
 
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badassmav

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Thanks for the pictures. I've read though all your threads on your build and most of the pictures are gone. I assumed Marc made you take them down. I assumed you would know the effects of not keeping the rack and tie rods in line. Fortunately for you, you were able to place the steering on the same plane as the upper arm and maintain a straight tie rod.

With our build I would have to push the wheels forward (I already have enough wheel base) or the steering arms would have have to be pushed even deeper in the wheels. Did you have to run a 15" to clear your steering arm?

I will be running a centerload rack with a spreader bar. With the traditional swept back A arm it will be better to run the rack inside the frame rails with the pivots between the upper and lower a arm pivots. A replaceable spreader bar make it very easy to adjust bump steer without moving the rack.
Yeah, they're 15's. But we planned on running 15" wheels whether or not clearances mandated it. To keep the work in house, since we have no machining capabilities, I chose to use the stock spindles, and I swapped sides so I could use the robust factory steering knuckle as a foundation for the front steer conversion. I plan to add an album soon showing every step of the process. I already helped an Underground member out of a bind when, based on my exposing our build, he jumped head over heels into converting his Mav to a front steer. I couldn't leave poor Jim hanging since it was my postings that motivated him to take the leap.

Although Marc is never pleased when I openly share intimate details on our build, I can recall only twice in the past that I deleted a post or pic at his request. Just prior to this years Baja 500 (or there abouts), I became frustrated by the attacks from other members whom, I assume, were fed up with my boasting and bragging. The details about who, or what was said is not important. Suffice it to say that I felt alienated, so I deleted all of my albums and pics, and requested to Joey that he delete my account, or cancel my membership, or however the hell you get out of here! Joey convinced me to hang in there, convincing me that the attacks should be somewhat expected, based on the content of my postings. I deleted maybe 700 or so detailed and revealing pics of nearly every aspect of our car, since at that moment, I was intent to take my marbles elsewhere.

After our Baja victory, I decided that the best way to utilize the Underground to my advantage, and every one elses benefit, was to start a detailed journal on what it takes, at every level, to design, build, race, and maintain a winning UTE, hence, the birth of my "Chronicles" thread. After all, aside from the self worth my following here affords me, the biggest reason for my sharing is to help the less fortunate, or lesser experienced members sharpen their learning curve, at little or no cost to them, hoping that they will use the time and money saved and put it towards their family unit. Put more money aside for their kids college fund, or pay an extra mortgage payment every couple of years. Take in a movie, or go to Disneyland. I am disgusted by society, and its negative influence on the family unit. It tears apart 1 out of every two households in California, and perhaps the nation by now.

You can call me "Manifesto Joe". Sorry to have bled all over your thread, it happens quite often. Ha ha, so no, Marc didn't make me take down my posts. :confused: Let me know if you would like details on any area of our car, and I'll repost the images. (so I can inadvertently piss off Marc) :rolleyes:
 

motive

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Jan 12, 2014
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When do you start building the chassis?

Love threads like this.
Who says we haven't started? The truth is we are farther along than I am showing. Both because I wanted to get enough content that this thread wouldn't stall and because there was a long period of time where there wasn't much visual progress. The car was tore down months ago. Much time was spent measuring,designing, consulting with shock and other experts, redesigning, ect.

I think we are on renditon 7 of the chassis. We began showing plans to fabricators around rendition 4 or 5. One well respected builder of cars for "shieks in Dubai " flat out told us to stop designing and let him start cutting and welding. Unfortunately that is a common attitude of most builders. They want to get on to the phase where "progress" happens. If we would have stopped at number 5 we would have missed a lot of great features and been 50+ lbs heavier on just the chassis.

I am going to stretch out this build log on purpose. I want show people considering going racing that to build a ground up race car that you have to do more than bolt on a bunch of parts designed for the average recreational user. I hope I can both inspire and teach something along the way. I guarantee this will not be an "orange county chopper" catalog build.

I appreciate the excitement. I to love to watch a good build come together. It will be picking up steam. I think Ryan is about ready to start showing some pictures of the chassis design. But for now, feel free to ask questions and hopefully we can all learn something along the way.
 

sand shark

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Mar 30, 2009
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I like all the tech stuff because it is educational and it allows us non-engineer and fabricators an insight into the process. It is fun to watch someone take a vision and make it into a reality.


So are you actually building the chassis in house or is someone else building it for you?
 

badassmav

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Jun 11, 2013
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Weighing and documenting each component of the car took a little extra time, but has been one of the most interesting parts of tearing this thing down. I grouped the weights of each component into systems. Working through it changed a few of my preconceived notions enough to take a second look at some of our plans for the build.
For comparative purposes, here's what a Maverick frame looks like. This is a 2014 Max chassis. Notice the habit the manufacturer has of cutting tubes short of their destination, and using gusset plates to join intersections. Kind of takes the word "rigidity" right out of the chassis, don't you think?
 

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COGNITO

Cognito Motorsports - Official UTVUnderground Spon
Apr 30, 2009
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At this point the measuring of everything started. Ryan and Eric took detailed measurements of the portions of the frame that we had to keep per rules. I began measuring all the factory suspension pivot points to recreate in CAD.

In addition to the measurements needed for our CAD drawing, Ryan weighed every component. This went into a weight budget spreadsheet where he can compare what gets tossed in the garbage to what we have to add back.

Anyone care to guess what the bare frame and cage weigh?
I'll go out on a limb and say 290-315#
So what did that stock chassis and cage weigh? I forgot to weigh mine at that point you have yours in that picture. I would think 350-370
 

motive

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Jan 12, 2014
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Pleasant Grove, UT
For comparative purposes, here's what a Maverick frame looks like. This is a 2014 Max chassis. Notice the habit the manufacturer has of cutting tubes short of their destination, and using gusset plates to join intersections. Kind of takes the word "rigidity" right out of the chassis, don't you think?
Wow! How much of that do you have to keep for a legal build because as far as race car architecture goes, that is junk. It would be so hard to correct some of that "accountant engineering".

Unfortunately we are not fabing the chassis ourselves. It is something I really wanted to do but my time is short already. I have both a mig and a tig but I wouldn't call myself a qualified welder either. I have built full tube chassis before and Ryan has seen my welding. It was probably a good choice on his end to hire it out.:eek:

With a little effort on instagram you could find out who is doing the fab and see some chassis drawings.;);) It is getting very hard to find a good fabricator that knows how to notch tubes by hand. We talked to a guys here in Utah that welds winning TTs for a living and another who builds winning class 7s. Both said they could do it if we had the tubes laser cut. The other local shops we talked to seriously did not want to build to plans. They wanted to just go at it. How the hell would we even know what we were going to get? The shop that is doing the heavy fab is known for his own style but was completely willing to build to our plans and for a very fair price. I know he'll do a great job.
 

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