Should BITD Have Let Max Gordon (8yr Old) Race??

[It'sYourLegacy]

I cant say I ever looked at the Max Gordon car very close. I was under the impression it met all the necessary rules. With what I know about UTVRA it doesn't surprise me that he allowed the car to race. He will generally allow a 1 time pass with the exception of don't bring the car back till the rules are met.

It is doubtful hat anyone else did either given any racer's belief (in any sport) that no other car on the course EVER be allowed to endanger any other (the primary definition of a legitimately administered SAFE competition) followed by strictly administered rules of engagement during the battle.

...Is Max a little young to be behind a wheel??? Thats not up to me.."

I would argue that it is indeed up to ALL of us. When somebody gets hurt, maimed or killed following this much arguing and (incredible) indifference for this many years surrounding even the most basic tenants of safety in the sport? Every single one of us will be held responsible given our outright refusal to fight for a safety-related legacy to date.

"..Based on what I seen the kid had more skill that alot of the field....not to mention a co-driver that probably has more experience than all of the field. Could he have gotten hurt competing? Absolutely.....he could get hurt riding his bike. I would imagine if a normal 8 year old showed up with no experience things would have gone different.."

Max Gordon, at eight years old, did not and does not possess "more skill" than "a lot" of the racers competing that day...period.
If nobody is willing to come on up here and challenge those type of statements (repeated countless times already) it is no small wonder that manufacturers, sponsors and even most racers are presently crawling under a rock in regards to 1900 class safety (in general) just as fast as they possibly can.

Put it this way:
If Lacrecia or any of these other racers cannot identify a car that far out of spec. by simply glancing at it?
Who are we supposed to believe in this class?

 

[XPirate]

What I don't seem to understand is why this guy ^^^^^ is going after the manufactures and sponsors and part makers????? Did Arctic Cat make him buy a wild cat? did they make anyone race one? did they supply the rules to follow? I personally am sick and tired of the lawsuits people placed upon businesses because the plaintiff doesn't want to take responsibility for their decisions. Yamaha got raked over the coals because people used that machine for purposes it wasn't intended for....But because they had deep pockets, that is who got responsibility to pay for every bodies actions. Pretty soon Proctor and Gamble will have to print warning labels on my $#!+ paper because I notice a little blood when I wipe. Many racing organizations have made exceptions to the "AGE" rule, USAC, NASCAR, NHRA, and many small local series, but that person generally had to gain a license or prove their skill before they were allowed to race. Safety should always take precedent, the rules that were established should be well thought out and enforced. If someone chooses to race after being told their car isn't safe. that is THEIR decision. When I raced, I worried about my car and my safety. I also knew that I was going to race clean, no intention of nerfing or racing blindly by GPS. If anyone else was planning to do that, I was prepared.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

What I don't seem to understand is why this guy ^^^^^ is going after the manufactures and sponsors and part makers?????.

The racers in this class have been told time and time (and time) again by no other than Joey himself that indeed THEY control their own destiny in this class. Not Casey, not those who ignore the rules to their advantage, not those who build assembly lines in Mexico...those who put their lives on the line.
It has become very obvious over the past several years (for whatever reason) that the vast majority of class 1900 racers (especially those in the top 10 overall) are 'bought and paid for' when it comes to the most obvious agreed upon neglect of safety in quite possibly organized American racing history.
If you're nothing but a 'puppet' when it comes to safety? The puppet masters (and all those dependent) soon necessarily become the focus so that our children do not 'puppet' that exact same behavior to theirs.

Did Arctic Cat make him buy a wild cat? did they make anyone race one? did they supply the rules to follow? I personally am sick and tired of the lawsuits people placed upon businesses because the plaintiff doesn't want to take responsibility for their decisions..

Nice try.
We are discussing the ambassadors, kingpins and profit-makers of the sport blatantly ignoring the safety aspects of it and not anybody showing up at their local speed shop to buy anything.
Smart strategy in attempting to change Joey's narrative and overall topic though.

"...Yamaha got raked over the coals because people used that machine for purposes it wasn't intended for....But because they had deep pockets, that is who got responsibility to pay for every bodies actions..."

I imagine that if Yamaha were arguing in court (then) that 8-year olds should operate "Rhinos" let alone UTVs with almost 4 times the horsepower in a race setting? We wouldn't be (now) asked by you to (somehow) make topic switching comparisons.

"..Many racing organizations have made exceptions to the "AGE" rule, USAC, NASCAR, NHRA, and many small local series, but that person generally had to gain a license or prove their skill before they were allowed to race..."

Please name the legitimate racing organization or participant in any of the above cited who has EVER dealt with an 8 year-old (or an age anywhere NEAR) in any manner whatsoever.
We're waiting.

If you're nothing but a mouthpiece for the groups mentioned above?
You're not a very good one.

"...Safety should always take precedent, the rules that were established should be well thought out and enforced. If someone chooses to race after being told their car isn't safe. that is THEIR decision.

#1...the rules have never been followed or enforced in 1900 class racing for years...
..and..
#2..."safety" is not "taking precedent" when any car is ALLOWED to race when it is not deemed safe to race (beforehand) within those very same rules.

"..When I raced, I worried about my car and my safety. I also knew that I was going to race clean, no intention of nerfing or racing blindly by GPS. If anyone else was planning to do that, *I* was prepared."

When much of the entire sport is agreeing with (outlandish) statements such as the above?
It is pretty obvious that we are dealing with an overall generational maturity issue which needs to be addressed/solved before any attention to the complexities involving 'safety' can even possibly be understood.

Not meaning to rag on you, my friend..but this sport desperately needs to convene some kind of 'Summit' somewhere so that the basics of legacy-driven racing programs can be more easily explained as compared to what I have (obviously) failed to accomplish here.

 

[XPirate]

Maybe I should have started here.....

1. Do you think BITD made a smart decision? NO
2. Do you feel safe passing or being passed by a 8 year old? With his "seat time" YES
3. Does this mean that now we can have youth entering into our class and how do you feel about that? I think that like other organizations, it should be case by case with a qualification process. Also only races with UTV's on the race course....
4. If this was a one time thing does the exception made for RG (who technically was suspended for the year from BITD) bother you? YES, if one person is allowed the opportunity to prove themselves, we all should at least have the opportunity to argue our case
5. What do you think would have happened had something gone wrong and how do you think it would affect the sport? It would be all over the news, if you haven't noticed, there aren't any heart warming stories on mainstream news, but they sure like to point out the bad news...

to follow up the requests by YourLegacy,

#2, seat time is experience, doesn't matter who you are, the more time your butt is in the seat, the better off you are to handle the situation. EVERY aspiring racer knows how important seat time is, and those that want to succeed and push their abilities push to get more and more. It's like baseball or football practice, except you're in a car...

#3, NHRA, USAC, NASCAR, INDY all allow you to prove yourself amongst your peers, NHRA mandates it, no matter who you are. NHRA allows 6-7 yr olds to run 13.9 index, I'll do the math, it's between 90-100... usac has quarter midgets that allow you to practice at 4.5, race at 5, run a full size midget @ 12, my cousins son was 3 time western states champion, from the age of 12-15 and allowed to run with the big boys before 16, he has seat time, obvious skill. Youngest NASCAR winner was 16 racing at New Hampshire, Cole Custer, that truck was moving...

 

[facteryfmf]

Has anyone else here thought about the weight of the helmet on Max' neck and or the size of the helmet on his head? To me that helmet is ENTIRELY too big and heavy for him and that was the most dangerous part of all of this!!!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[fortune46x]

Has anyone else here thought about the weight of the helmet on Max' neck and or the size of the helmet on his head? To me that helmet is ENTIRELY too big and heavy for him and that was the most dangerous part of all of this!!!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Snocross has a class for 4-7 and I've watched kids absolutely kamikaze the track's jumps, crash, and get back up again , I wouldn't worry about helmet weight.

 

[#xpwarrior]

There is a problem with an eight year old racing but the rules do not prohibit it. The real problem can be seen in these photos.
1. Bolt on cage
2. Opening doors
3. No door bars (not tall enough and do not have ladder or A)
4. Unreleased model of Artic Cat (note trailing arms)

Not seen in the photos I have posted but seen in other photos:
1. No blue lights (strobe)
2. Fuel cell strapped to plastic bed
3. Bumpers do not extend 2" further than tires

Allowing an 8 year old to race in an unsafe car is despicable! I hate to say it but this was all a publicity stunt. BITD and UTVRA have proven all they care about is money. BITD wanted that $900 entry plus their kickback on the RacingTrax $275 and UTVRA wanted that $30 tech fee (wonder if taxes get paid on that income). Everyone just wants their little slice of money. This would have never happened in SCORE. Just as Factoryfmf stated, that helmet was too big for Max. You can see it moving on his head in the video of him racing, but that's on his Dad.

So speak up racers! I find it a little disheartening that so many aren't saying anything here. This is why our racing organization is the way it is, no one cares to go on the record and say the truth. Lacrecia and BigJim have made little statements, but here is the proof that UTVRA and BITD do not care about the UTV class and they don't have to with all the silence.

 

[fortune46x]

Except the trailing arm suspension is out for arctic cat already and had been for weeks before this race.

 

[Factory UTV]

Wow,this is a tough one. For sure should be a fully legal UTV. 8 seems very young, I wouldn't personally put my kids in that situation. The comments about helmet weight is something that really bothers me about California's helmet law. I think small children strapped in properly are probably safer than strapped in with the weight of a helmet on their head, but I'm not a scientist so that's just a gut feeling. Having said that I've seen 8 year olds on a motocross bike doing things like soaring over a huge triple or slamming through a bunch of whoops that require as much coordination and manual dexterity as doing anything driving a UTV ever will. So I guess I'm on the fence on this one. If they made the minimum age 12 I'd be good with that, if it's 8 I'm not going to protest about that. I seriously doubt RG would unnecessarily endanger his son for a publicity stunt. I have to believe he made a decision based on his overall experience and his experience with Max behind the wheel, that Max was capable enough to get the job done.

 

[#xpwarrior]

Except the trailing arm suspension is out for arctic cat already and had been for weeks before this race.

Hmm, my research says differently. The Artic Cat web site says the car isn't available until November.

https://www.arcticcat.com/dirt/side-by-sides/model/2017-en-wildcat-x-limited/

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

'...here is the proof that UTVRA and BITD do not care about the UTV class and they don't have to with all the silence.... '

If this criminal neglect stopped at the the class itself or involved only the racer 's welfare or even UTVRA/BITD... things would be bad enough.

The stickers plastered all over these cars when we take delivery imply that a united group of manufacturers (age specifically) 'sincerely' seek a safe experience with their product.

Any integrity which the lot of the (including aftermarket suppliers) have ever earned in this regard is now effectively null and void given their collective and intentional silence to date.

"...All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing..."
Edmund Burke

"Evil" is defined as somebody soon getting killed in one of these races or hurting themselves/somebody else while full well knowing that the tragedy could have easily been prevented by simply speaking out/standing for something "good" besides themselves.

 

[NIKAL]

Hmm, my research says differently. The Artic Cat web site says the car isn't available until November.

https://www.arcticcat.com/dirt/side-by-sides/model/2017-en-wildcat-x-limited/

The rear trailing arm Wild Cat was a special limited edition last year. You could order one, and they came with the rear tig welded rear arm with bolt in to the frame rear trailing arm brackets. Again those were built and welded up right in RG's shop.

Go back and find and watch last years Arctic Cats 2016 dealer show and you will see a few of these running around the show floor. They then called it the Robby Gordon limited edition. Right after that Robby added them to his Stadium Super truck series.

This years 2017 Wild Cat has a stamped steel rear trailing arm as Standard on all Wild Cats, vs special order limited edition on the 16 that you see Robby running.

So this would be legal to race, just as the Turbo XP1000 was when they raced them 2 weeks after the dealer show release, yet you could not find one or buy one at your dealer before they raced them in BITD. Only factory teams could get them.

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

Hmm, my research says differently. The Artic Cat web site says the car isn't available until November.

https://www.arcticcat.com/dirt/side-by-sides/model/2017-en-wildcat-x-limited/

Yeah..but then again, on that same page, it says:
"Minimum operator age 16"
...or "8" or "5" or whatever age which multiple corrupt racing associations heavily sponsored by car manufacturers 'allow' on any given day (please bring your bone stock machine to the track with a fuel cell strapped to the bed).

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

"...So this would be legal to race, just as the Turbo XP1000 was when they raced them 2 weeks after the dealer show release, yet you could not find one or buy one at your dealer before they raced them in BITD. Only factory teams could get them...."

...so...6 out of the 7 items noted in post #47 are "no big deal" when it comes to the rules and keeping racers safe...due to "Polaris" teams running fuel cells strapped to their bed and no lights...when???

 

[NIKAL]

...so...6 out of the 7 items noted in post #47 are "no big deal" when it comes to the rules and keeping racers safe...due to "Polaris" teams running fuel cells strapped to their bed and no lights...when???

I never said the other items were no big deal. I was just correcting that the model of vehicle was legal to race.

I'm not sure who you are, and I dont really care, as I know I could probably school you when it comes to rules and safety in desert racing. I shit knowledge and history of this sport. (Anyone reading this that agrees with me, give this post a thumbs up, if you dont agree with me give me a thumbs downs and we will see how I score!)

But what's your big beef and how is this really effecting you? Because you sure seem dedicated to this topic. If you dont like how this desert series is being run, then dont watch, race or whatever it is you do. If this really bothers you grab a handful of sack, and make a call to the big guy! Call Casey with BITD and call Cory with UTVRA. Hell over the years I grabbed my sack and the guy next to me, (Needed bigger balls!) and made calls to Casey @ BITD, Sal @ Score, and more recent Roger with Score. Even sat at a young child's funeral several months back and talked to Roger & his wife about safety! I've dealt with some real PITA Tech directors like Bill Savage, and Art over the years too!

If your trying to get a band of brothers to support some cause, I get coming on here! If that is what your trying to do, I'm missing it and so are many others. If you think coming on hear is going to change something without going to the guys that run and own the show, then your pissing into the wind and nothing is going to change.

Maybe your just not a fan of Robby, and this is your way of showing it?? Like I said I'm not fully getting why this one case really has you bent and what you are wanting done?

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

"..I never said the other items were no big deal. I was just correcting that the model of vehicle was legal to race...

Who frankly cares when the rest of the car isn't. You've been dancing around simply calling for or better yet demanding that all of this never happen again. Nobody gives a crap about the trailing arm they ran with this much on the line (safety and product development-wise) for years on end...and you know it.

".. not sure who you are, and I dont really care, as I know I could probably school you when it comes to rules and safety in desert racing. I shit knowledge and history of this sport. (Anyone reading this that agrees with me, give this post a thumbs up, if you dont agree with me give me a thumbs downs and we will see how I score!)

Then you are more responsible than most for not "shitting" when an 8 year old (his father) shows up to drive an unsafe car and 'somebody' allows him to drive it.
There are racers here (some more than others) who know full well that the next accident will (sadly) be on their own shoulders with this much safety debate already under the bridge. A few have come forward to call their fellow racers out due to the obvious. Your suddenly injecting yourself as the resident rules 'expert' here and then somehow demanding that everybody either give you a public 'backslap' or kick in the arse to prove it? 'Strange indeed' considering the black and white circumstances here not to mention your 'grey' commentary on (needed) cement-cast rules to date and safety.

"..But what's your big beef and how is this really effecting you? Because you sure seem dedicated to this topic.

I am old enough to have witnessed and lived through kids younger than Max being maimed and killed all over this country for a long time. When you have to ask "really" how offroad safety affects anyone else? You "really" don't understand much and probably never will in this sport.

"...if you dont like how this desert series is being run, then dont watch, race or whatever it is you do...

Great solution. I can certainly see why "the big guys" (in your following boast) take your counsel so seriously.

"...If this really bothers you grab a handful of sack, and make a call to the big guy! Call Casey with BITD and call Cory with UTVRA. Hell over the years I grabbed my sack and the guy next to me, (Needed bigger balls!) and made calls to Casey @ BITD, Sal @ Score, and more recent Roger with Score. Even sat at a young child's funeral several months back and talked to Roger & his wife about safety! I've dealt with some real PITA Tech directors like Bill Savage, and Art over the years too!.."

Hard to believe that the most well known UTV racing class in the country could be this screwed up (and dangerous) for so many years with you "shitting knowledge" around these movers/shakers for that long. Not sure if you're dragging all these guys down with you or bragging about how you all (collectively) believe that everything has been 'swell' or that none of you can do a thing about it.

"...If your trying to get a band of brothers to support some cause, I get coming on here! If that is what your trying to do, I'm missing it and so are many others. If you think coming on hear is going to change something without going to the guys that run and own the show, then your pissing into the wind and nothing is going to change.

I don't need to go to anybody and neither do you.
This class has been the most shameful in offroad racing..period.
If you believe that every single one of your powerful friends, the manufacturers, the sponsors or the racers themselves don't already know this by now (in detail) then you certainly must believe that we're all pretty stupid (or perhaps just not as up on 'the rules' as you).

"...Maybe your just not a fan of Robby, and this is your way of showing it?? Like I said I'm not fully getting why this one case really has you bent and what you are wanting done?

We're all getting pretty sick of defending our (repeated) insistence that the Gordons have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. This "one case" encapsulates everything (foreboding) which many of us have been warning about for years now.

I'd like to own a 200+ HP UTV someday.

We will never get there if this utter stupidity continues to not only (unbelievably) be argued but promoted.

 

[bluediamond]

There are maybe 4 or 5 guys in total that off road race professionally here in this country . I have a hard time beliving this one was going to put his young son in a car that he didnt feel was 100% safe. This same car passed tec at KOH as well. Completely different organization. The other stuff is nonsense. There are 8 year olds on Moto tracks all over the country that are doing things that require much more physical maturity than steering and breaking a UTV . And they dont have thier dad sitting right next them either.

 

[Sport10]

Sandman365 said it all!

 

[tatum]

Please dont feed the trolls!

 

[It'sYourLegacy]

There are maybe 4 or 5 guys in total that off road race professionally here in this country . I have a hard time beliving this one was going to put his young son in a car that he didnt feel was 100% safe..

^^^^
We haven't witnessed this much changing of the narrative since Hilary at the last presidential debate.
This sport does not (and should not) revolve around what the Gordons (or anybody else) might might want to do on any given day.
That fact is exactly why this long overdue safety debate has absolutely nothing to do with the Gordons, "experience" or "professional"(not) participants that day (personally).
These continual attempts to change the topic and simply shoot the messenger (see below) prove just how far up the ladder that a (blatant) complete and utter disdain for common sense UTV safety discussions/actions has indeed infected our sport.

"..This same car passed tec at KOH as well. Completely different organization.

So your point, which most here have already confirmed (whether they agree with anything offered or not) is that improperly built cars are being passed off as "properly built" at even the toughest sanctioned races in the world. You're right.
Let's ratchet the age for competing in these incompetently administered/'tech'(ed) events down to say "5" or so and leave the rest to the lawyers.

"...The other stuff is nonsense. There are 8 year olds on Moto tracks all over the country that are doing things that require much more physical maturity than steering and breaking a UTV . And they don't have their dad sitting right next them either.

Motorcyclists have the AMA or the most powerful offroad lobbyists in perhaps the world. These guys help convince even onroad cyclists that they shouldn't be required to wear a helmet at 200 mph (plus). We (UTV enthusiasts) have nobody lobbying for us (by choice) yet evidently believe that we can get away with racing 8-year olds in cars which don't even pass our own rules.
"Dad" isn't going to carry the day in a court of law involving UTVs when things go south involving the latter. More importantly, every enthusiast reading this and still choosing to remain silent has a whole lot more to worry about in another (inevitable) court anyways.