Red Lands Racing/Motive Engineering BITD build

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT
Hi everyone. Out of everyone on our team, I have been chosen the one that gets to share with you our build. Maybe that's because I'm the only one that knows how to use a computer for social purposes. Anyway, I am excited to finally be able to let the cat out of the bag here on UTVUG!

A little about the team before I get into the car. Red Lands Racing is a team put together by my brother in law, Ryan. He owns the car and will be the primary driver. Don't know how much will transfer over to life in a cage and four wheels but we have been building and racing both steetbikes and dirtbikes together since he married into the family. I do know he is no stranger to pushing things to the max so it should be interesting riding shotgun.

Next up is Eric. He is Ryan's little brother. A mechanical engineer by trade he has made it his personal mission to maximize every component of this build and has been responsible for designing the chassis. Better watch out, this is not your average "weld a cage on top", type build.

Lastly is me, Zane. I too went to school to be a mechanical engineer but decided that the cubicle life was not for me. I prefer the hands on approach so I skipped the corporate rat race to work on whatever interests me. Thats usually Ducati, KTM or gun related. I own Motive Engineering, a small (part time) CNC business where I make custom gun and bike parts. Being the only one with experience on a full on build, I have taken on the task of designing our own suspension.

Next up: The build!
 

badassmav

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2013
1,379
182
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Jamul
Hi everyone. Out of everyone on our team, I have been chosen the one that gets to share with you our build. Maybe that's because I'm the only one that knows how to use a computer for social purposes. Anyway, I am excited to finally be able to let the cat out of the bag here on UTVUG!

A little about the team before I get into the car. Red Lands Racing is a team put together by my brother in law, Ryan. He owns the car and will be the primary driver. Don't know how much will transfer over to life in a cage and four wheels but we have been building and racing both steetbikes and dirtbikes together since he married into the family. I do know he is no stranger to pushing things to the max so it should be interesting riding shotgun.

Next up is Eric. He is Ryan's little brother. A mechanical engineer by trade he has made it his personal mission to maximize every component of this build and has been responsible for designing the chassis. Better watch out, this is not your average "weld a cage on top", type build.

Lastly is me, Zane. I too went to school to be a mechanical engineer but decided that the cubicle life was not for me. I prefer the hands on approach so I skipped the corporate rat race to work on whatever interests me. Thats usually Ducati, KTM or gun related. I own Motive Engineering, a small (part time) CNC business where I make custom gun and bike parts. Being the only one with experience on a full on build, I have taken on the task of designing our own suspension.

Next up: The build!
Sounds like it will be an awesome build to follow and learn from. Many members of the Underground have an insatiable appetite for information, and will gobble up all that you choose to share. Don't be afraid to divulge the how's and why's of your design. If you share with the lesser experienced teams the thought process that is part of the build, they will get a better understanding of the mechanical possibilities that is available to them, and their cars.

As a young and eager fabricator, I searched long and hard for any data or formulas that would apply to desert cars, but most everything available at that time (25-30 years ago) pertained to road, or circle track racing. Authors like Carroll Smith provided great fundamental reading, but offered little as to which areas of chassis design and technology were relevant enough to cross over into our world. As a result of my earlier quest for information, today I enjoy sharing all of the juicy details (boring to some, no doubt) with those younger fabricators, or do it yourself teams who are not afraid to put in the time to do things right. I know that I wished it were there for me back then. If I can save people time and money, and help them to build a competitive car in the beginning of their journey, well then the journey will be a much more fruitful one for them and theirs, and my goal will have been reached.
 
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motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT
The car we are building on is a 2015 xp1k. After hearing about the changes for 2015 we decided to wait to get the updates in hopes that the belts last longer. I think we got the first on in Utah.


I should mention that we decided on the polaris because we had been racing a wildcat in some local BOR races. My hat goes off to anyone that can keep one together for a whole race.

We put about 50 miles on it to make sure everything was good from the factory. We found one seel weeping that the dealer was fine warrantying after we pulled the motor. So the tear down began.
[ame="http://youtu.be/VapFicak0gg"]http://youtu.be/VapFicak0gg[/ame]
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT
I should have uploaded the video to Youtube before I started! I expected to get at least 2 posts before anyone else.

Reid: I really appreciate all the knowledge you share here. I plan to share a lot of the why and how stuff too. There is some stuff that I won't get too particular about. At least not until it is proven in battle. All the books by Carroll Smith are a great start for anyone thinking about building a car. I would also suggest books by Allan Staniforth. While it is also written towards the more pavement based cars, with a little thinking a lot can be applied to the dirt. There is just so many more compromises when you are cycling the suspension a couple feet instead of a couple inches. Maybe you should write a book!

NIKKAL should also be considered a team member if he likes it or not. Thanks for throwing ideas back and forth!

Since Reid brought up sharing the whys and hows, I'm going to tell you the very first thing you should do before starting a build...

READ THE ENTIRE RULE BOOK for the class you are thinking about. And not just the UTV section. If you want to comply with all the BITD rules you have to read the general book too. Otherwise you might think you can just show up with a turbo mav. In fact, every member of your team needs to read it. Highlight what you MUST do, what you must NOT do. What do you have to have, what can you do, what can't you do. Have your wife, dad, boss... anyone who will... read it and constantly have them review your plans for your build. Someone showed up to V2R with a bolt on cage. That shouldn't have passed. I guess they felt sorry for him and let him enter the sportsman class. What if he would have been the one nailed by a TT instead of Marc? Just because you think you can get by, don't risk it. One of the fabricators (builds class 7 cars) we talked to about welding our chassis told us not to even ask questions if something questionable might pass. He said just show up, that they would have to let us run because they want the money. Stupid advice, the rules are there to make it fun to compete and that means above all, to be safe.

Reading the rules will also help you determine the best platform to start with. One car may be better out of the box but it could be limited by what mods are available that are race legal. Would it be better to modify a rzr's suspension or use a stock wildcat? This plays in with your budget. You want to be competitive so you have to determine what needs to be done to a particular car to run with everyone else. It might not be legal to change a weakness or it might cost too much. If you are the owner of the car, you need to have the rules practically memorized. Don't expect the guy welding your cage to know what needs to be done.
 

NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
970
310
63
READ THE ENTIRE RULE BOOK for the class you are thinking about. And not just the UTV section. If you want to comply with all the BITD rules you have to read the general book too. Otherwise you might think you can just show up with a turbo mav. In fact, every member of your team needs to read it. Highlight what you MUST do, what you must NOT do. What do you have to have, what can you do, what can't you do. Have your wife, dad, boss... anyone who will... read it and constantly have them review your plans for your build. Someone showed up to V2R with a bolt on cage. That shouldn't have passed. I guess they felt sorry for him and let him enter the sportsman class. What if he would have been the one nailed by a TT instead of Marc? Just because you think you can get by, don't risk it. One of the fabricators (builds class 7 cars) we talked to about welding our chassis told us not to even ask questions if something questionable might pass. He said just show up, that they would have to let us run because they want the money. Stupid advice, the rules are there to make it fun to compete and that means above all, to be safe.

Reading the rules will also help you determine the best platform to start with. One car may be better out of the box but it could be limited by what mods are available that are race legal. Would it be better to modify a rzr's suspension or use a stock wildcat? This plays in with your budget. You want to be competitive so you have to determine what needs to be done to a particular car to run with everyone else. It might not be legal to change a weakness or it might cost too much. If you are the owner of the car, you need to have the rules practically memorized. Don't expect the guy welding your cage to know what needs to be done.
Preach on Zane! This is exactly what I have been saying to many. You will not only build a better race car, but you will be a better informed racer if you know the rules inside & out. Like I have said, so many have left so much on the table, and its not due to money, its due to not taking the time to read the rules and see what's there and what's not there. The UTV class rules are very open.

And I hate the fact that its true in this sport, that many take the approach that its almost better to not ask questions and just show up. I know the few times I looked at some of the UTV's at contingency, I have seen things that I'm surprised are passing tech, or that other competitors are not looking at as not being legal. I've even spoke to a few who will say things like we know so & so's pivot point is not stock, or that they did something that is not legal, but no one says anything as tech lets it go. I know it to can be hard especially in the UTV class as they are Tech'ed by someone who races in the class. I know I have heard more then once that some feel its a conflict of interest, but so far it's working. But at the same time they don't want to ask a competitor if they can do something, or give a competitor an idea. But this is just not happening in the UTV class. There have been issues like this in the past with Score and other classes.
 

UTVUGJake

Active Member
Feb 11, 2013
908
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Thanks for sharing the build with us, and cool time-lapse! Glad to see more like-minded M.E.s out there, looking forward to seeing more.
 

racer570

Active Member
Apr 10, 2012
207
32
28
houston ms
I agree that you might not want to give a advantage away, but don't be like a guy that showed up this year at the Parker 250 with a car (that took him over a year to build) that would not pass tech. I felt so bad for that guy. So much money and time, for nothing.
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT
I agree that you might not want to give a advantage away, but don't be like a guy that showed up this year at the Parker 250 with a car (that took him over a year to build) that would not pass tech. I felt so bad for that guy. So much money and time, for nothing.
Totally agree. Anything that could be questioned will be well documented. It also says in the rule book to contact Corey before you show up to your first race. If you don't and something doesn't pass, you have no one to blame but yourself. I had the chance at V2R to ask several questions about our build. Some of his interpretations of the rules changed our plans.

So if there are cars that have made changes that are not allowed, why hasn't anyone said anything? Is it because everyone in the class relies too much one everyone else to help out in time of need and they don't want to burn any bridges they might need to cross? Its great that the UTV class is tight knit enough that competitors will lend parts and stuff but at some point someone is going to throw a fit and the dynamic of the class could quickly change. That would be a sad day. I have no problem sharing whatever is needed at tech, be it weight, build details, ect even if it is with a competator. If you read and follow the rules, you have every advantage that someone else has.

So before the suspension pieces were pulled off the chassis, I did an analysis on the stock system. Ackerman was very good and very close to 100%. Don't know if the same front spindle is used for both the 2 and 4 seater as wheel base effects ackerman and the required steering arm to achieve a certain percentage. Camber curve was rather soft in my opinion. What was really surprising was the amount of bump steer. Don't laugh as my quick and dirt bump steer gauge. For $1.50 set of hinges and some scrap MDF it served my purposes.
[ame="http://youtu.be/aE8y5ankYtw"]http://youtu.be/aE8y5ankYtw[/ame]
 
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NIKAL

Well-Known Member
May 13, 2012
970
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Regarding the Bump Steer, I'm not surprised as the 900 was bad. I thought I heard the 1K front was better then the 900. I dont know about the 1K rear suspension, but the rear of the 900 will make you scratch your head too.
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT
The rear follows a very complicated path. It is not a true tailing arm as the actual pivot axis is the imaginary line between the front trailing arm pivot and the lower inner radius rod pivot. Its more like a rear turned A-arm and the upper a-arm is the axis between the front trailing arm pivot and the upper inner radius rod. So basically the upper and lower virtual a-arms share a common pivot point.
 
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the stripping shop

RACER - UTVUnderground Approved
Jan 29, 2009
1,101
137
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peoria,Az
www.strippingshop.com
Totally agree. Anything that could be questioned will be well documented. It also says in the rule book to contact Corey before you show up to your first race. If you don't and something doesn't pass, you have no one to blame but yourself. I had the chance at V2R to ask several questions about our build. Some of his interpretations of the rules changed our plans.

So if there are cars that have made changes that are not allowed, why hasn't anyone said anything? Is it because everyone in the class relies too much one everyone else to help out in time of need and they don't want to burn any bridges they might need to cross? Its great that the UTV class is tight knit enough that competitors will lend parts and stuff but at some point someone is going to throw a fit and the dynamic of the class could quickly change. That would be a sad day. I have no problem sharing whatever is needed at tech, be it weight, build details, ect even if it is with a competator. If you read and follow the rules, you have every advantage that someone else has.

So before the suspension pieces were pulled off the chassis, I did an analysis on the stock system. Ackerman was very good and very close to 100%. Don't know if the same front spindle is used for both the 2 and 4 seater as wheel base effects ackerman and the required steering arm to achieve a certain percentage. Camber curve was rather soft in my opinion. What was really surprising was the amount of bump steer. Don't laugh as my quick and dirt bump steer gauge. For $1.50 set of hinges and some scrap MDF it served my purposes.
http://youtu.be/aE8y5ankYtw
so are you going to move steering box or try to move tie rod location on spindles.
 

motive

Active Member
Jan 12, 2014
219
94
28
Pleasant Grove, UT


At this point the measuring of everything started. Ryan and Eric took detailed measurements of the portions of the frame that we had to keep per rules. I began measuring all the factory suspension pivot points to recreate in CAD.

In addition to the measurements needed for our CAD drawing, Ryan weighed every component. This went into a weight budget spreadsheet where he can compare what gets tossed in the garbage to what we have to add back.

Anyone care to guess what the bare frame and cage weigh?
 

badassmav

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2013
1,379
182
63
56
Jamul


At this point the measuring of everything started. Ryan and Eric took detailed measurements of the portions of the frame that we had to keep per rules. I began measuring all the factory suspension pivot points to recreate in CAD.

In addition to the measurements needed for our CAD drawing, Ryan weighed every component. This went into a weight budget spreadsheet where he can compare what gets tossed in the garbage to what we have to add back.

Anyone care to guess what the bare frame and cage weigh?
I'll go out on a limb and say 290-315#
 

badassmav

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2013
1,379
182
63
56
Jamul
Regarding the Bump Steer, I'm not surprised as the 900 was bad. I thought I heard the 1K front was better then the 900. I dont know about the 1K rear suspension, but the rear of the 900 will make you scratch your head too.
I was looking at an XP 1000 last week and the bump steer on the stock car was minimal. Front and rear. Good job Schlomaris!
 

Red Lands

New Member
Oct 15, 2014
18
10
3
Pleasant Grove UT


At this point the measuring of everything started. Ryan and Eric took detailed measurements of the portions of the frame that we had to keep per rules. I began measuring all the factory suspension pivot points to recreate in CAD.

In addition to the measurements needed for our CAD drawing, Ryan weighed every component. This went into a weight budget spreadsheet where he can compare what gets tossed in the garbage to what we have to add back.

Anyone care to guess what the bare frame and cage weigh?
Weighing and documenting each component of the car took a little extra time, but has been one of the most interesting parts of tearing this thing down. I grouped the weights of each component into systems. Working through it changed a few of my preconceived notions enough to take a second look at some of our plans for the build.
 

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